Bonus points to skaters who attempts all triples

What do you think about giving an extra 1.00 point to the skaters in the Ladies field that attempt all 5 triples. Men generally attempts all triples. At least once the skaters attempted all the triples. Yamaguchi always attempted the triple Salchow, Fontana the triple Loop, S.Hughes the triple Lutz and Flip...Kwan when she had problems with Loop and Flip, she attempted them.
Now some top skaters aren't attempting some jumps. I think they don't even train them. Meier, Gedevanishvili, E.Hughes, Suguri the 3loop, Czisny and Mao the 3sal ...
I think there should be lower points also in choreoghraphy, because there is a lower variation of elements.

I actually think that would be a good idea. But I think the skater should get the points if they successfully land the jumps.

As long as skaters are credited for jumps just for rotating them, even if they fall, then I think that a skater who attemps and rotates all five triples should get a bonus. I'm not saying that I'm a big fan of throwing in jumps that one can rotate but not land (ahem, Mr. Buttle and your quads last year, not too impressive) just because one can still get points for them, but as long as those are the rules, then I guess it would only be fair to give credit to someone who attempts to do all of the triples. But maybe it could be on a scale, landing all the five triples should be worth a larger bonus than someone who attempts all five but only lands one or two cleanly.

i'm not a fan of 'attempted' jumps. For me, an incompleted jump should have an automatic deduction of 50 per cent of the base value. Hate to be tough but the winner in a competition should be based on the 'best that day/night'.

Joe

Joesitz said:

i'm not a fan of 'attempted' jumps. For me, an incompleted jump should have an automatic deduction of 50 per cent of the base value. Hate to be tough but the winner in a competition should be based on the 'best that day/night'.

Joe

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That's not a bad idea. I, too, hate the attempted jumps getting so much credit. A 50 percent deduction for all non-clean jumps isn't a bad idea. I wouldn't want to say skaters get no credit for jumps with errors because then I think a lot will not ever try to push the envelope and I do applaude skaters who don't just play it safe all the time, but I hate skaters doing jumps that they know htey aren't going to be successful.

gio said:

What do you think about giving an extra 1.00 point to the skaters in the Ladies field that attempt all 5 triples. Men generally attempts all triples. At least once the skaters attempted all the triples. Yamaguchi always attempted the triple Salchow, Fontana the triple Loop, S.Hughes the triple Lutz and Flip...Kwan when she had problems with Loop and Flip, she attempted them.
Now some top skaters aren't attempting some jumps. I think they don't even train them. Meier, Gedevanishvili, E.Hughes, Suguri the 3loop, Czisny and Mao the 3sal ...
I think there should be lower points also in choreoghraphy, because there is a lower variation of elements.

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Just out of interest when did Kwan's triple loop become her "nemsis" jump?

I'm assuming that ack in 1998 it certinly wasn't because following on from the stress fracture of her toe that made the toe loop and salchow painful for her, she used two triple loops (one in combination obviously). So i'm guesnig back then she was happy enough with the loop? I never really thought of her ever having a problem with the flip - she fell on it in SLC but falling on a jump once in competition does not mean you have a mental block about it.

Ant

If you say ALL triples, it must include axel.
I think five triples bonus is OK.

antmanb said:

Just out of interest when did Kwan's triple loop become her "nemsis" jump?

I'm assuming that ack in 1998 it certinly wasn't because following on from the stress fracture of her toe that made the toe loop and salchow painful for her, she used two triple loops (one in combination obviously). So i'm guesnig back then she was happy enough with the loop? I never really thought of her ever having a problem with the flip - she fell on it in SLC but falling on a jump once in competition does not mean you have a mental block about it.

Ant

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I would say it defintely started with the hip problem. She could grit her teeth and do it in 2003 but it wasn't getting any better until she just had to stop doing the loop jump. Maybe a year off would have cured it.

One is never perfect with any jump all the time. I just think that flip was one of those days.

Joe

Here's how I would reward variety of takeoffs:

Small bonus (1.0 or 2.0, i.e., approximately the value of another double jump) if jumps of six different takeoffs are completed with at least 2 revolutions

Larger bonus (3.0 or 4.0, i.e., approximately the value of a double axel or triple toe) if jumps of six different takeoffs are completed with at least 2.5 revolutions for women, at least 3 revolutions for men OR at least eight different takeoffs with at least 2 revolutions

"Completed" for this purpose means GOE of -1 or better (prorated for the negative GOE values of double jumps)

Downgraded triples qualify as doubles, and downgraded quads as triples, but only if they were otherwise good enough to end up with no worse than -1 GOE even with the underrotation

My reasons:

Rewarding all the basic takeoffs even if some of them are doubles means that skaters who don't actually have the full repertoire of triples will have an incentive to show that they can do those takeoffs as doubles and not just omit them entirely in favor of repeating, say, the double axel instead. Doubling out on planned triples at the last minute would lower the bonus but still reward the skater for planning all the different jumps.

Rewarding doing all the triples by almost as much as a whole triple jump base value by itself gives an incentive to skaters who have one or more problem jumps to work on them and to take the risk of attempting them in hopes of being rewarded not only with the base value of the jump but also the bonus rather than just repeating a jump they're more likely to land

Rewarding eight different takeoffs as at least doubles would encourage skaters who aren't able to add more revolutions to work on other, rare jump skills such as double walley or double inside axel (and these jumps would need to be added to the scale of values; I think they should be worth more than double axels)

I can't imagine that the bonus of doing all triples would outweigh a poorly done triple, whether it be underrotated or pre-rotated or poorly landed, falls etc. Using Michelle as an example-in order for her to put the loop in (in 2005) she would've had to do one less lutz or flip. Since both are worth more than the loop, if she got a deduction on the loop, no way would the bonus make up for substituting lutz/flip for the loop.

Looking back, it does appear the loop became Michelle's nemsis jump around the time her hip pain became a problem, as Joesitz said. What makes me wonder is why then was she (rumored) to be training a 3sal/3loop and a 3toe/3loop in 2005. RA did say he didn't like her enterance to the loop and was said to be reworking it, that we would "see it when she needs it." I don't think over the course of her career the 3flip was ever an issue. She had trouble at SLC, but her 3flip was solid and beautiful! :thumbsup:

This seems like an unnecessary gimmick that makes an already too complicated scoring system even more complicated. To fill in all the jump opportunities with triples a skater has to try at least one of every type of triple. If a skater cannot do every type of triple they will be penalized by having to do doubles instead for their jump opportunities, and lose out on points.

So skaters who can do all types of triples already can get more points and skaters who can't already suffer.

Although, if a skater had a triple Axel she could do

3A
3A+2Lo
3Lz
3Lz+2Lo
3Lo
2A
2A+2Lo+2Lo

That's 44.6 base points, before second half bonus -- a huge program.

But

3A+2Lo+2Lo
3Lz+2Lo
3F+3T
3A
3Lz
3Lo
3S

is 50.5 points and the skater with one of each type of triple does better.

Mathman said:

Although, if a skater had a triple Axel she could do

3A
3A+2Lo
3Lz
3Lz+2Lo
3Lo
2A
2A+2Lo+2Lo

That's 44.6 base points, before second half bonus -- a huge program.

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In this case I think choreoghraphy marks should be lower. No variations of elements with 4 axels, 2 lutzes and 5 loops.

antmanb said:

I never really thought of her ever having a problem with the flip - she fell on it in SLC but falling on a jump once in competition does not mean you have a mental block about it.

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I said this, because I remember once the British Eurosport commentator (Chris or the other one) said that MK had problems with the triple flip. I think he said this commentating her 2003 SP. If you have the registration you could check by yourself. Obviously I don't know if the commentator was right or wrong. As you have said, falling once it doesn't mean that you have problems with a jump.

gio said:

I said this, because I remember once the British Eurosport commentator (Chris or the other one) said that MK had problems with the triple flip.

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I'm quoting myself, because I re-watched in few minutes some of her triple flips and I have to say there were pretty solid.
About the triple loop, I thought that it was her weak jump because it was generally the first jump she included in her LPs. Generally skaters include their most problematic jump at the beginning, right?

gio said:

I'm quoting myself, because I re-watched in few minutes some of her triple flips and I have to say there were pretty solid.
About the triple loop, I thought that it was her weak jump because it was generally the first jump she included in her LPs. Generally skaters include their most problematic jump at the beginning, right?

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It depends, some skaters open with the hardest jumps like quads and triple axels because they take more energy and they're full of energy at the start of their programs and "running on empty" (to quote the British Eurosport commentators!) by the end. Some skaters do a jump they can do in their sleep to open with just to settle their nerves. Stojko for many years opened his LPs with a triple flip and got a triple axel under his belt before going for the quad.

Personally i think i'd want to go for a jump i can do with no problems first in order to calm my nerves and leave a trickier jump to later on in the program.

Ant

gio said:

I said this, because I remember once the British Eurosport commentator (Chris or the other one) said that MK had problems with the triple flip. I think he said this commentating her 2003 SP. If you have the registration you could check by yourself. Obviously I don't know if the commentator was right or wrong. As you have said, falling once it doesn't mean that you have problems with a jump.

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I THINK I remember that quote and it was something about the 3flip at that competition being clean and easy, no problems unlike at SLC.

About the triple loop, I thought that it was her weak jump because it was generally the first jump she included in her LPs. Generally skaters include their most problematic jump at the beginning, right?

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I'd have to go back and re-watch all her LPs (no problems! ) but off the top of my head, she started opening with the 3 loop for her LPs in the season 2000-01 and each season after that, until 2004-05, where there were no 3lp attempts. Actually, I think she 1st started doing the 3loop 1st at Worlds 2000, with The Red Violin.

Why fuss around with downgraded jumps? If a skater can't complete the jump, just take 50 per cent off the value of the jump, and be done with it. If he falls on the jump then take another full point off the final score. The skater will still get partial credit for the'attempt' and not get a penalty for an overgraded lesser jump.

Joe

Joesitz said:

Why fuss around with downgraded jumps? If a skater can't complete the jump, just take 50 per cent off the value of the jump, and be done with it. If he falls on the jump then take another full point off the final score. The skater will still get partial credit for the 'attempt' and not get a penalty for an overgraded lesser jump.

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Isn't that pretty much what we have now? If you 'attempt' a triple toe but can't complete the rotations you get 1.3 points instead of 4.0. If you complete the rotations but have other serious problems you get -2 GOE and end up with 2.0 points instead of 4.0.

If you fall, they do take another full point off the final score.