Yagudin vs. Plushenko

I am going to go down memory lane. I just watched the 2002 Olympic skates of Plushenko and Yagudin on you-tube. Both Yagudin and Plushenko programs were excellent but very different. Does anyone know the breakdown of the marks. Did Yagudin win by a landslide? Also does anyone think that Plushenko should have won that competition?

demarinis5 said:

Also does anyone think that Plushenko should have won that competition?

Click to expand...

Yagudin won that competition in a cakewalk. Plushenko fell during the SP and was placed in 4th and he could have been placed lower. It's not that the program was a disaster but he received a couple of 5.6's for Technical Merit. With a mandatory deduction of .4 for the fall that means he would have received 6.0's. In my mind he was held up, although as defending world champ it was to be expected.

With Yagudin in first after the SP and Plushenko in 4th he would have had to win the LP and have Yagudin place no higher than 3rd. That pretty much sums up the technical aspect of whether Plushenko should have won.

When it came down to the programs Yagudin had the more complete programs. Plushenko was Yagudin's equal in the technical department but didn't deliver the goods completely. He fell out of the 3loop on his 4-3-3combo and doubled a Salchow. Yagudin was clean technically with the only iffy part being a slightly forward landing on his 3flip.

Presentation wise Yagudin was and still is considered by most to be the superior of the two skaters and he skated with incredible abandon that night adding to the effectiveness of his performance. Considering he skated the most demanding of all Olympic winning performances, Yagudin takes this event hands down. There were definitely times that Plushenko outskated Yagudin, but this competition wasn't one of those times.

Good summation Mike. I thought Alexei's Olympic skates were terrific.

Dee

Mike79, I don't think we've met but I love you!

No opinion

I am not particularly into men's event, no opinion. But I do like Brian !! Brian is the best in figure skating history!!!

I was not enthusiastic about Plushenko or Yagudin in the Olympics. During the Olympic season Plushenko had problems with the freeskate programme, it got changed rather late, didn´t it? I blame Mishin for Plushenko´s unsuccess. Besides, Plushenko was injured before the Olympics and he suffered from it there.

Yagudin´s freeskate was not impressive in the Olympics, in my opinion. He was the last to skate and played it safe and that was veeeery obvious to my eyes. If one compares his freeskate performances at Olympics and Worlds, the latter is rather different, in my opinion. I think that not long ago I saw somewhere a link for his Olympic freeskate, but that clip actually was from the Worlds!

don't mean to be incendiary...but. I think Plushenko should have won! I know he had a few mistakes in the LP, but I much preferred his to Yagudin's, and I'm a big Plushenko-hater.

I thought Goebbel should have been second in the LP behind Plush: therefore, given how 6.0 worked, I think it should have been...1. Plush, 2. Tim, 3. Yag. Plushenko had a more difficult program (technically and artistically), he had better line, posture, musicality, everything...except for a few jump bobbles. Tim was technically the best of that night, but he was below Plush.

Does anyone else agree w/ me?

mike79 said:

With Yagudin in first after the SP and Plushenko in 4th he would have had to win the LP and have Yagudin place no higher than 3rd. That pretty much sums up the technical aspect of whether Plushenko should have won.

When it came down to the programs Yagudin had the more complete programs. Plushenko was Yagudin's equal in the technical department but didn't deliver the goods completely. He fell out of the 3loop on his 4-3-3combo and doubled a Salchow. Yagudin was clean technically with the only iffy part being a slightly forward landing on his 3flip.

Click to expand...

Plushenko was technically superior to Yagudin. Yes, he had two bobbles, but his program was much more difficult: 4-3-3 combo, 3A-1/2-3F combo (Yagudin had only a 3A). Definitely Plushenko was the better jumper while Yagudin was a better spinner (though mediocre).

What do you mean by ”Considering he skated the most demanding of all Olympic winning performances"? Yagudin, just like Plushenko was a master at frontloading and taking breaks in his programs. Watch his 2002 LP on mute and I am sure you’ll be surprised at how many rests he has (I totally hated the pantomime moments). Probably Goebel had the most difficult program that night.
And I don’t get the rave about choreography and about “Yagudin the great artist”.
In my opinion John Curry was truly an artist who radically changed the face of figure skating. Now compare these two.

In conclusion: Yes, Yagudin deserved to win that competition because Plushenko bombed the SP but Plushenko also did pretty outstanding considering that it was his first Olympics.

iloveaxel said:

I am not particularly into men's event, no opinion. But I do like Brian !! Brian is the best in figure skating history!!!

Click to expand...

Which one? Boitano or Orser?

Yagudin all the way! And not just because of Pluschenko's fall in the short. I think that Yagudin really did manage to pull his artistic side up to a very high level where Pluschenko has been able to coast on his technical skill.

Its a shame Yagudin was too injured to continue after SLC, i think he and Pluschenko would have continued to push each other harder and harder, forcin greater technical skills and puhing pluschenko to learn the meaning of choreography and artistry.

Just to counterbalance, i think calling yags triple flip landed "slightly forward" is atd generous, it wasn't quite Irina's landing on her triple flip but it wasn't far off!

Also at both Olys and Worlds he skated in a position that meant he could ease off some of the technical content. I think the best perofmance of that LP was at Europeans where it contained both of the quads and both of th trilpe axels as well as beautiful artistry.

My honest opinion is that the LP order at the Olys should have been:

1. Yags
2. Goebel
3. Plush

Ant

Ant

antmanb said:

Also at both Olys and Worlds he skated in a position that meant he could ease off some of the technical content. I think the best perofmance of that LP was at Europeans where it contained both of the quads and both of th trilpe axels as well as beautiful artistry.


Ant

Click to expand...

What? Check it again.
Yags had a lousy LP at the Europeans2002. Sasha Abt should have won that competition.

amber68 said:

What? Check it again.
Yags had a lousy LP at the Europeans2002. Sasha Abt should have won that competition.

Click to expand...

What was lousy about it? I was sure it was the europeans version of Man in the Iron Mask i thought he did the best with the two wauds and the two triple axels...maybe i was thinking o fthe GPF from that season?

Ant

Thanks for all your comments. To be truthful I was so caught up in the ladies
competition that I did not pay much attention to the men's which I regret. I did not realize Plushenko was in 4th after the SP-ouch.

Good explanatiion by Mike and I agree Plushenko should have been lower after the SP. He somehow got held up. Who were the judges?

Aside from this competition, Yagudin had come into his own as a stylist (finally) and he would win over Plush in future competitions if his hip didn't give out. JMO

Joe

antmanb said:

What was lousy about it? I was sure it was the europeans version of Man in the Iron Mask i thought he did the best with the two wauds and the two triple axels...maybe i was thinking o fthe GPF from that season?

Ant

Click to expand...

I surely know that Yags had several jump mistakes but, to make sure I am correct in describing them, I went to youtube to watch the program again.
Guess what? I couldn't find it! So it must have been bad

Joesitz said:

Aside from this competition, Yagudin had come into his own as a stylist (finally) and he would win over Plush in future competitions if his hip didn't give out. JMO

Joe

Click to expand...

We do not know what would have happened if Yags had continued his career. The competitions between these two were always very close and unpredictable. Even if Yags was the better stylist, Plush was the better technician, IMO.

amber68 said:

We do not know what would have happened if Yags had continued his career. The competitions between these two were always very close and unpredictable. Even if Yags was the better stylist, Plush was the better technician, IMO.

Click to expand...

I should speak for myself and say I prefer a whole package to a dead pan face on the ice. But you are correct, we don't know how the future would be but I prefer Yags over Plush. too bad we will never know the future. but it ended with Yags on top and Plush being held up.

Joe

amber68 said:

What do you mean by ”Considering he skated the most demanding of all Olympic winning performances"? Yagudin, just like Plushenko was a master at frontloading and taking breaks in his programs. Watch his 2002 LP on mute and I am sure you’ll be surprised at how many rests he has (I totally hated the pantomime moments). Probably Goebel had the most difficult program that night.
And I don’t get the rave about choreography and about “Yagudin the great artist”.
In my opinion John Curry was truly an artist who radically changed the face of figure skating. Now compare these two.

In conclusion: Yes, Yagudin deserved to win that competition because Plushenko bombed the SP but Plushenko also did pretty outstanding considering that it was his first Olympics.

Click to expand...

What I mean by that is his program would have beaten all other Olympic winning programs. He would have beaten Boitano, Petrenko, and Hamilton, with Kulik's being the only program that would have stood a chance at competing against Yagudin's. Before Hamilton it's silly to compare Olympic programs with those of the last couple of Olympics simply because the technical content today is well beyond what was being done many years ago. I agree that Curry was a magnificent artist but technically he certainly wasn't doing two quads per program! I'm not saying that's a good or bad thing, it's just the truth.

Yagudin always front loaded his programs, as did Plushenko who continued to front load right in to the 2006 Olympics. If we compare both programs Plushenko's was a brand new LP that, while skated well, was fairly empty. There were a huge number of simple crossovers and very little in terms of connecting steps. Even his footwork sequences were sparse on the footwork, unlike in his SP where his footwork was phenomenal. I did forget that he had a 3Axel-3flip sequence that was very impressive.

I'm sure it sounds like I'm coming across as harsh but I don't think this competition was close at all. One thing I will say about Plushenko's LP was that it was the first time I remember seeing him skate a program that seemed to have a cohesiveness to it. Before this his programs usually consisted of several different sections that didn't seem to have any connection to each other. From this LP on he really seemed to come into his own presentation-wise.

I agree with 'the Yags won 2002' side of the debate; however I do think it is quite amazing how these very different skaters both had so much command over the ice and both were able to grab and relate to the audience so well. They were both, in different ways, hugely talented in that respect, and both had a lot of technical goods, and competition prowess. I miss them both.

I also agree that stylistically, there was a way that Yagudin emerged in 2002, and I really suspect with the Olympic win and his other wins, and with that new found style, he would have continued to develop it. We never got to see his 2002-03 LP (he withdrew from the first even ot that season), but I just felt like 'I KNEW" it would have shades of brilliance. Obviously I don't know that in any scientific sort of way; and I don't even recall people who may have seen him practice it say anything about it...just a feeling I had. Anyone actually know what that program may have been like?

As for Plushy, I do think he colaboration with Martin (sp? the violinist) was interesting, and his tribute to Najinksy (sp??? sorry), while often skated with mistakes here and there, was to me, quite interesting....sadly, his gold medal Olympic program was kind of empty - but the guy had the technical goods in the short and long, and won without question. And that he is a great performer/show man, I think, is indusputable.

amber68 said:

What do you mean by ”Considering he skated the most demanding of all Olympic winning performances"? Yagudin, just like Plushenko was a master at frontloading and taking breaks in his programs. Watch his 2002 LP on mute and I am sure you’ll be surprised at how many rests he has (I totally hated the pantomime moments). Probably Goebel had the most difficult program that night. And I don’t get the rave about choreography and about “Yagudin the great artist”. In my opinion John Curry was truly an artist who radically changed the face of figure skating. Now compare these two.

In conclusion: Yes, Yagudin deserved to win that competition because Plushenko bombed the SP but Plushenko also did pretty outstanding considering that it was his first Olympics...................

We do not know what would have happened if Yags had continued his career. The competitions between these two were always very close and unpredictable. Even if Yags was the better stylist, Plush was the better technician, IMO.

Click to expand...

Plushenko did not deserve to win gold even if he hadnt bombed in the short program, nor would he have. He lost the long program easily, Yagudin won every single judge, and outscored Plushenko on both technical and presentation scores.

Plushenko is one of the most overscored skaters of all time. I would rather watch Yagudin anyday over Plushenko. Plushenko compared to Yagudin is nothing but jumps. Yagudin does great jumps, better spins then Plushenko, definitely better footwork then Plushenko's overrated sloppy footwork, much more complicated and quality choreography, far better interpretation of music, better connection to the audience, more sincerity in his delivery. I dont agree Plushenko is the better technician, Yagudin is just as much capable in jumps just not as consistent generaly-but was more consistent in the big events the 2 went head to head in mostly in fact, Yagudin has better spins, much better footwork then Plushenko's as I said before, atleast as much speed, edge quality, stroking quality. On the 2nd mark the 2 dont even compare, and because of his spins and footwork Yagudin should be considered the stronger technicaly overall if he is "on" if it fair.

Yagudin is a great artist for sure, he pays attention to the music and choreography, and can make a program come to life in a way few skaters can. So what if Curry is the best artist in skating ever probably, Yagudin is still one of the best ever in that regard as well even if Curry is tops-that doesnt change that, and plus he is totally different style of artist then Curry so you cant really compare them. Plushenko is no artist, he is an arm waving, connect-the-dots jumping bean who wins based on amazing jumps and ridiculously inflated scores in everything else. If the ISU had the guts his PCS would be seriously investigated since they are bordeline criminal.

Yagudin beat Plushenko at the 98 Worlds, 99 Worlds, 2000 Worlds, 2002 Olympics. The only World or Olympic event Plushenko beat Yagudin in was the 2001 Worlds when Yagudin was seriously injured. It says something about Yagudin's superiority that Plushenko, even with Yagudin missing a full quadrennial that Plushenko got with an early injury retirement, and Plushenko having a non-Yagudin field to toy around with for 4 years as well, Yagudin still has 5 World and Olympic golds to this point to Plushenko's 4.