Flutz vs Lutz, Causal fans vs. Die hards, a dying sport?

We had a heated debate on 'flutz' under 'Jr. worlds' section. I am pulling out some of my thoughts to create this separate thread. I believe it's a very interesting topic. I am puzzled by the over-emphasis of die-hard figure skating fans on visually subtle things such as flutz, edge. I do believe the sharp different attitudes towards such things between die-hards and causual fans are really one reason that figure skating is dying.

There are some of my thoughts, welcome to join the discussion.

Red Dog said:

But a large number of the viewing audience is casual fans, not die-hards. Casual fans can care less about the point stuff and jump stuff. Many are just tired of seeing performances with obvious mistakes getting placed above clean ones (in other words, controversial calls, colluding, judge anonymity, etc.)

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Red Dog, you're exactly right. I am one of those fans who can not tell lips, can not tell flutz, can not tell edge. I'm also one of those who're just tired of seeing performances with obvious mistakes such as stumbles, falls getiting placed above clean ones with flutz, without 'edge' etc, which, frankly, can not really be identified without microscope(literally).

The elitist attitude of some diehards is really killing figure skating market. There is another example. A couple of freaks on some other boards(won't name them since it's against the rule here) commented that shen&zhao's throws should receive a -2 GOE because they hate zhao kicking his free leg. I don't understand why certain diehards want to impose their own pet peeves to the more 'regular', shall we say, more 'normal' spectators? A flutz certainly won't kill the overall quality of a program, a fall certainly does.

I turned on TV this afternoon, and watched a bit gymnastics competition on NBC('Cup of America' or something). I was very very surprised about the size of the crowd. It was a big crowd, especially when you compare it to the empty arena of 4cc. Those folks don't necessary understand the subtle quality such as 'edge', 'flutz' or 'artistry' or whatever, they do, however, know how to enjoy an intense program with lots of difficult jumps, tumbles, all those things who can grab your attention, wow you. Caroline Zhang's performance has that quality, it can wow you. I certainly would be happy to tolerate her flutz.

If diehards continue to focus on flutz, the decline of figure skating is probably inevitable, and you guys will certainly pay more for a dwindling market with a couple of skaters who have no originality but can do so-called true lutz(in my untrained eyes, there is really no true lutz since almost everybody changes the edge during take-off).

SeaniBu said:

I have to believe a lot of that had to do with location. I and most from Denver Boulder area agree CO Springs is a nice town, but mainly in the summer. Also every snow we have there is going to be an accident near Castle Rock which is on the way south to the springs from Denver. If they moved the world arena and the FS hall o' fame I think the attendance would be greater. The person who drove last time I was there in the middle of Olys last year to see Sasha at the Broadmoore said that is the last time he would drive down in inclement weather. It was sketchy. And there was really nothing else to do down there that getting a head start on the 2 - 4 (due to weather) hour drive didn't take precedence over.

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The location is an important factor for the dismal audience size of 4cc. But my generally impression is that the crowd of gymnastics competition is much much larger than figure skating competition for a while. When u watched all the GP events such as Skate America across globe, you'll see more than half of the seats are empty(except maybe NHK Cup). From what I saw this afternoon on TV, the size of gymnastics competition is much larger. The arena is roughly filled.

I do believe one reason is that figure skating's scoring does not appeal to regular audiences. if you over emphasize on 'flutz', 'edge', and stuff like that, you really can't appeal to mass crowd. How can you actually tell from a distance whether a skater is flutzing or not anyway. Another good example is Suyra Bonaly. She is very athletic and definitely a crow pleaser. 'Regular' viewers just love her. But she's crucified by judges and diehards on skating boards for lack of edge, basic skating skills etc. The contrast is so sharp that 'regular' viewers just did not understand why she got low marks, and obviously they would no longer be interested in such a flawed sport.

I really believe the scoring system itself is very flawed with emphasis on subtle quality, instead of athletism, 'wow' factor. Maybe that's why figure skating only appeals to those picky women?, just kidding. I don't know.

A dying sport with picky flutz haters?

It's "elitist" to want the basic elements of the sport done right? Ok, fine. Whatever.

iloveaxel, i see your point. who cares if caroline zhang has a slight change of edge when she can bend over backwards in a spin and reach her toes to the ceiling. who cares when she can dance like a fairy on ice. i don't, and most viewers won't either. i saw a girl skate her best and she should be rewarded as such.

Tinymavy15 said:

iloveaxel, i see your point. who cares if caroline zhang has a slight change of edge when she can bend over backwards in a spin and reach her toes to the ceiling. who cares when she can dance like a fairy on ice. i don't, and most viewers won't either. i saw a girl skate her best and she should be rewarded as such.

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Well, because both of us are uneducated causual fans who can't tell flutz from lutz.

Both of us also love contortionists Sasha and Caroline. That must have pissed off lots of 'educated' diehards. LOL.

Peace.

I'm far from being an elitist, but, as Kasey already touched upon, there are certain ways to do certain things on skates, many of them simply because they don't work any other way.......
You did - on purpose or by accident - pick one of the best examples of this. The Flip and the Lutz are basically identical, except that one starts from an inside edge, the other from an outside edge.
In other words, don't do a Lutz when you're supposed to be doing a Flip.....
It's sorta like wanting the sky on the painting you've commissioned blue instead of purple.
Things such as spins require a very strict series of maneuvers, not because a bunch of boring stickler fuddy-duddies want it that way, but because they don't work any other way.
Anyone who's ever tried to learn how to do a scratch spin knows what I'm talking about.....

I think what we have here is a basic disconnect between those who've worn skates and those who haven't.
I see this a lot at the rink, there's those among the non-skaters who are awestruck over anything other than crawling on all fours across this alien surface, there's those who are dismissive (because it looks so 'easy'....) - they are usually brought to heel REAL quick if they actually have the stones to put skates on themselves, and there are those who only like the 'showy' stuff - which isn't always the most difficult - and get bored with edges and fancy footwork.

I don't think that FS is a 'dying' sport, but it is a little bit of a prickly pear, for the simple reasons that falling on ice hurts a lot worse than falling on grass or a mat, and it's c-o-l-d at the rink.........

Personally, I think the question of the proper way to score a Lutz attempt with an improper take-off edge is way, way, way down the list of why figure skating is struggling to maintain it's popularity.

^ I agree, and attempting to fix the system so it does do that, IMO, is futile. I think this whole thing came up because a few die-hards were implying that this and other scoring issues were a big reason that FS is not taken seriously, and I countered with saying that casual fans and non-viewers, who make the vast majority of the skating audience, do not care about these things so much as they care about seeing the right performance win...the BEST performance win.

Red Dog said:

^ I agree, and attempting to fix the system so it does do that, IMO, is futile. I think this whole thing came up because a few die-hards were implying that this and other scoring issues were a big reason that FS is not taken seriously, and I countered with saying that casual fans and non-viewers, who make the vast majority of the skating audience, do not care about these things so much as they care about seeing the right performance win...the BEST performance win.

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The system does not need to be fixed to appeal to a couple of flutz haters. If ISU goes down that path, it will only further erode the popularity of this sport.

Just imagine the following scenario:

At 2010 Olympics, Caroline Zhang or Sasha Cohen flutzes twice but skates their program beautifully. If the scoring system is revised further to severely punish their 'flutz' as suggested by a couple of die-hards(-3 GOE ?). At the same time, a mediocre technical skater with true lutz takes advantage of this system, (who is a true lutzer anyway, maybe the Hungarian lady) she eventually wins due to addtional bonus points by doing two true lutz. Just imagine the confusion, frustration, anger, and boos from the mass crowd. It sure can please a couple of flutz haters on GS forum, but anothere 'scandal' will likely erupt and that will definitely be the nail in the coffin of figure skating.

How can the commentators explain to the audiences in front of the TV sets? 'Caroline/Sasha loses because they flutzes'. 'What the hell is flutz'??

This 'flutz' thing is just one example that I think you can't take a couple of disgruntled die-hards seriously. They have a long list of pet peeves they'd like judges to address. What's next? a -2 mandatory deduction on PCS to punish skaters with no make-up? I know lots of die-hards are already complaining Kimmie's thin make-up.

If ISU follows their lead, you all know what's going to happen.

I thought the great thing about COP is it being "the sum of all the parts"? If that is the case, the girl with 2 true lutzes that is mediocre in every other aspect will not beat the flutzers that still maintain the higher quality in other elements. If two skaters have pretty much the same levels, meaning maintains high quality of their elements, not just ticking off the requirements for high levels, but one has 2 true lutzes and the other has better pointed toes, I sure hope the lutzer wins out.

To prove a point-Shizuka Vs Sasha. Shiz has a true lutz. She also has several high level elements under COP and can contort her body for spins and spiral positions that garner level 4's. She may not be as asthetically pleasing to some as Sasha, but IMO, she is the better skater with better basics. To see her live compared to Sasha is something else-quiet blades, more speed, better ice coverage and deep edges.

I can't tell a lutz from a flutz, but I do want to see it done properly and scored accordingly... so where do i rank?

not that I really care lol... I think skaters should be judged not only on a program and the like but also if they can actually do it right...

First of all figure skating is an exacting sport. And yes all the little "nitpicky" details are important to not only die hard fans (such as skaters from the old school of figure skating such as myself) to the skaters, the coaches and even the parents who pay for their youngsters to learn to skate. If skaters are not taught proper technique on each aspect of figure skating there would be no point to it. There would be no Kurt Brownings or Jeff Buttles to WOW us with their finesse on the blade. We may as well all turn our tv stations to a hockey game in progress. Hey, even hockey players take lessons on how to skate from figure skating instructors!

If you have ever gotten up at 4:00 am in the morning and put on your figure skates to trace figures you know what I am talking about. Yes, even in the wee hours of the morning one is expected to pay attention to detail. Believe me these skaters we watch year after year work very hard to make sure they are doing a Lutz not a Flutz. Their coaches are watching them closely too as well as the judges.

As for figure skating being a dying sport, I doubt that. It's still very much alive here in Canada.

Historically, figure skating was always a participant sport (with a fairly small pool of participants because of the expense) with a small following among the general public except during the Olympics.

Some skaters went on to successful pro careers after being introduced to the world through Olympic medals at the end of their competitive careers (e.g., Sonja Henie, Peggy Fleming, Torvill & Dean, Brian Boitano, Katarina Witt, etc.) Thus there was skating to see between Olympics on TV or in an arena near you when a touring show came through. But it wasn't the sport of skating, it was skating as art/entertainment.

Meanwhile the sport continued, mostly ignored by the public in the US. ABC's Wide World of Sports showed competitive skating a few times a year, later ESPN came into being and showed some additional events, and CBS also showed some starting in the late 1980s as part of the run-up to their coverage of the 1992 and '94 Olympics.

Canadian skating coverage had always been a bit more extensive because skating is more a part of the general culture in Canada than in the US -- a lot higher percentage of Canadians have at least been on skates than Americans. I really can't speak historically about any other countries.

But still, it was pretty much a relatively obscure sport except during Olympics.

In the mid-90s, several things happened to change that. Staggering the summer and winter Olympics brought more attention to the 1994 Winter Games. So did the reinstatement of several well-known pros. And then Nancy Kerrigan got whacked. Viewership for the 1994 ladies' final was at a record-setting high. A lot of people who tuned in because of the Harding/Kerrigan scandal discovered they actually enjoyed watching the skating and were interested to keep watching.

There were strikes in other sports in that opened up broadcast time for figure skating at a period when public interest was high. There was a huge boom in pro events, there was more TV coverage of eligible events, the ISU started offering prize money which encouraged star skaters to remain eligible for years, for multiple Olympiads, more often than cashing in on Olympic fame and turning pro as had usually been the case in the past. The World Wide Web became available to the general public as an information source that allowed people to find others to discuss interests such as skating more often than (or instead of) it was possible to travel to competitions or shows to find other fans.

And so skating became a very popular sport for a while.

Over the years, a lot of the casual fans lost interest. Some new fans found the sport, but for various reasons the interest is not as high in the US now as it was a decade ago.

On the other hand, it's much higher now in places like Russia and Japan. And of all those kids who started skating during the 90s peak, the best ones are still out there competing at the top levels.

So I can't agree that the sport is dying. Declining in popularity as a spectator sport in the US, I would agree. New enrollments of kids who might become future elite skaters may be lower in the US after the 2006 Olympics than was true in 1994 or 98, but plenty of kids are still signing up for skating lessons. The freestyle sessions at my rink are still crowded.

Adult skating is still pretty popular, and there are more programs for adults and young adults, or non-elite-track teens, now than in the mid-90s, certainly than in the 80s or before.

What casual fans prefer to see vs. what die-hard fans want to see from the top skaters won't make much difference in how the sport itself progresses, certainly not in who wins, because it's not the fans who are determining the winners.

The officials who make the rules may take into account what the public seems to appreciate. That was certainly a significant factor in the decision to eliminate school figures. But the standards that people who spend their lives in rinks understand about what constitutes good skating will always hold more weight than the preferences of fans whose knowledge may range from "falling is bad and looking pretty is good" to equal to the pros and who may disagree with each other for reasons of taste as well as for reasons of different levels of understanding.

SOME fans like to analyze the technical details. I do. I like to understand the sport as a sport, and the more I learn the more I tend to understand/agree with the results.

SOME fans like to analyze programs as works of art. I do, although I find it more relevant for programs that are created with artistic purposes in mind, which is not most competitive programs.

SOME fans like to focus on the personalities of the skaters and their relationships. Not my area of interest, but hey, I'm more interested in actors as actors than as celebrities as well. Obviously there is a market for celebrity culture though. If it helps fund my favorite sport, I won't complain.

It's a complex sport. There's room to appreciate it from a lot of different angles. But it has always been a technical sport with results determined by details that are difficult or impossible to appreciate if your only exposure is watching on TV occasionally. If you enjoy it at that level, great. If you want to learn more, also great -- buy a rulebook or find the rules online, get to the closest rink to watch or better yet to take some lessons. But don't expect the rules, from beginner to elite leels, to get dumbed down to "falling is bad, looking pretty is good, judges don't have to know how to recognize edges, let's all just vote for their favorites." The sport is not dying, but if it ever took that approach, that's exactly what could kill it as a sport.

Axel here's the deal. I think its really wrong for you to say that those of us who think the difference between a flip and lutz is unimportant and are ruining this sport" aren't being quite fair.

The main issue is to educate fans. If Dick Button, Peggy Fleming, Scott Hamilton etc, explained to the public about flutzing in the beginning of the competition, and the difference between jumps. Most of the public would understand why Caroline or whoever lots points for their error.

Just like the public knows that in baseball you can hit the ball long, long, long, if it goes foul it goes foul. The public may not be able to tell the difference, but they are quite capable of understanding this type of thing.

Second, if this were to happen in the Olympics, all parties involved would be informed about a deduction, and probably many people would just choose to try a triple lutz, if they were incapable of doing it.

And the whole point is in this sport, its suppose to be about what you are doing with your blade...And the different jumps are suppose to show mastery of different types of things. If skaters were allowed to do just one type of jump and win, it would ruin the sport. So yes it matters.

One of the reasons the commentators exist is to educate the people so that they will understand why things got marked the way they did.

flutz:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=t1XKap2yOhM

iloveaxel said:

Another good example is Suyra Bonaly. She is very athletic and definitely a crow pleaser. 'Regular' viewers just love her. But she's crucified by judges and diehards on skating boards for lack of edge, basic skating skills etc. The contrast is so sharp that 'regular' viewers just did not understand why she got low marks,

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Even to a regular viewer the contrast was so sharp thay in no way you could not understand why she go low marks.

I see no meaning with even discussing this, they are two different jumps! And they are decribed how to be made and if that is not done the propper way the points should go down (and they do as I understand) this is fair. And there is a difference between show skating and Competition skating.

/Lena

For me, I believe all moves in figure skating should be be done properly ... that should be the goal. Of course, not all will be done that way all the time, so there should be some sort of deduction. But I do agree that this is just one part of the jumping process .. so even with this mistake, the jump can still be relatively successful if all the other parts are done well. The punishment for the skater will be in not receiving as many points for the element as they could.

For me I feel this way about it "Lutz, Flutz, can you land one of them"?:yes:

Lutz vs. flutz is only one of many many technical details considered in judging figure skating. Decisions will rarely come down to that one issue.

If there are more than one good performances at an important competition (or any competition), there will probably be differences of opinion among the fans and among the judges about who was the very best. Many titles were won with split ordinals under the old system. Many will be won with very close total scores under the new.

Discussing these close contests and wondering whether one detail like a flutz might have made the difference is fun and often educational. It's not worth getting worked up over injustice having been done if the skater you preferred wasn't on the winning end. If judges give the detail that your favorite skater was best at is given too much weight, that skater will win. If they give the detail another skater was best at more weight, then the other skater will win. Different judges may cancel each other out. But ultimately someone will come out ahead. All scoring systems have been designed to make ties rare.

If we enjoy different kinds of skating and different kinds of skaters, we'll be in luck because no matter who wins, we can find something to appreciate about their performances.

What a great collection of reponses, well argued and well written. I have to give the gold to GKelly's post #12, but Ladskater, Bekalc, Sussweden and the one-word post of Hsuhs (one video is worth a thousand words, LOL) are also right on the mark, IMHO.

Well I thought I knew the difference between a Lutz and a Flutz but after reading through this interesting thread (Lutz/Flutz 101) it was definitely an education on the subject for me. Thanks for all the great posts.