Elizabeth Smart

Re: Took her back to her parents house?

I think the guy took her home to her parents to prove how much control he had over her. It also stopped any police investigation, even though that had pretty much fallen off years before.

There is so much that went into this girl's torture that I can't begin to go into it all. For one thing, he and his wife kept her in a box under their bed for virtually 24 hours a day, only letting her out once or twice a day to use the bathroom, although she often lay in her own urine and feces; to give her some water and food; and to sexually torture her. Given that this is a forum for many ages, I can't describe the kind of sexual torture this girl endured, but let's just say he hung her from hooks on the ceiling of his basement. (There are photos.) He also had her sign a slave contract. After keeping her in isolation, not feeding her, showing her supposed snuff films, and torturing her for a couple of weeks, the guy convinced the girl (it wasn't difficult) that there was a whole syndicate of guys like him and that if she tried to escape or let anyone know about what was happening that she and her family would be killed. So when he took her to see her family, I think it was a test to see if he truly had her under control. Of course the girl was convinced that if she gave any indication that anything was wrong that the "syndicate" would kill her and her family.

The way she finally got out of the situation was that the wife became very religious and started reading the Bible with the girl. The husband decided it was okay for the two fo them to go to church together and eventually the wife told the pastor what was going on. That led to police involvement. The guy was charged with kidnapping and a lot of other things, but it was a difficult case because the girl had signed that contract and especially because of the visit to the parents. But the guy was convicted and put away for a long time. The girl was in captivity from the age of 20 until about age 27 or 28. Not long after being released, she married and had a child, which is very common for peple who have been held in such situations and sexually tortured. They tend to marry and have children soon after their release, probably in an effort to find stability and normalcy.

It often sounds incredible that people would do anything except try to escape, but like the psychologists have been saying, when one is in a situation of mind control and torture, the mind soon goes into survival mode. Whatever one has to do to survive, one does. This girl survived and Elizabeth Smart survived, and that's all our primitive brains are interested in. And in the end, that's all what really matters. To me, it's very similar to adults and children who are in abusive domestic situations. They adapt so they can survive.
Rgirl

Re: Took her back to her parents house?

rgirl, what a sad, sad story.

Do you know whether the marriage worked out or not?

I have never lived in Utah, but have gone there a couple times. If I recall, they used to refer to it as 'Living Behind the Zion Curtain'.

dpp

Re: Hostage for Almost 10 Years

Doris,
As I remember the show on this girl (it was on something like "American Justice"), the girl's marriage did not last long. They didn't say anything, but my sense is that she was probably so desperate for a stable, normal life that she married the first guy who seemed okay. She did have a child though and her bond with the child was obviously very strong, so that at least seems to be a positive thing for her. Also on this show they gave some statistic about how many people are held captive in situations of sexual torture. I don't remember the number, but I remember thinking that it was A LOT. As I'm sure you know because of the situation with your father, there are a lot of horrendous things that go on that never get news coverage.

Yes, "Living behind the Zion Curtain" is another Utah descriptor. There's a book with a bunch of sayings about Utah. If I get a chance (she says knowing she probably won't), I'll try to track it down. Some are "in" jokes, like about the accent. You know how in Boston it's "pahk the cahr" and in NY it's "turdy turd and turd street" in Utah it's "My Lard, Darthy! That's a gargeous arnge farmal!"
Rgirl

Re: Took her back to her parents house?

Speaking of Utah 'in jokes', Rgirl, I had an wonderfully irreverent Mormon friend who screenprinted T-shirts that read:

"Welcome to Utah! If you think our liquor laws are funny, wait'll you see our underwear!"

Re: Hostage for Almost 10 Years

rgirl, You might not believe this, :lol: but my husband actually worked at Turd and Turdy Turd out in Brooklyn in the USCGC Supply Depot during the Vietnam War, fixing electronic equipment.

BTW, wouldn't it be my Lard, Darthy, we aren't in Kansas anymore?

dpp:lol:

Re: Took her back to her parents house?

Aloft, NICE ONE! Damn...I mean, dang...I wish I could remember that book. Maybe I can find it on Google.

Doris, Kansas is a hot bed of sin and vice compared to Utah. I mean, they have jazz and steak in Kansas City. In Utah they have the Mormon Tabernacle Choir and Jell-O. Actually, as I'm sure Aloft will testify to, Mormon food is almost as funny as the jokes about Mormons. What these people can do with miniature marshmallows...
Rgirl

Re: Hostage for Almost 10 Years

I agree, there is probably something "fishy" about the kidnapping...but I feel for the poor girl. The night of the news, at work there were some people saying "I bet she thought it was fun, was never even held against her will"....I hope that whatever the truth is (and we may never fully know) that SHE heals emotionally from the thing and grows up reletively "normal"...Kasey

Re: Elizabeth Smart

Elizabeth Smart's abductor took her at knifepoint. I doubt she thought it was fun. But that fact may not have been reported in the news everywhere.

I don't see anything fishy about the abduction, but I do see the police doing a poor job. Why wasn't every worker who was at the Smart house prior to the kidnapping brought in for questioning? Even if they couldn't find this Emmanual guy right away (they were up in the hills for about a month after the kidnapping), every person who had worked on the Smart house should have been on a list of suspects to check out. Especially given Emmanuel's background, red flags should have gone up all over the place. A photo of every person who had worked at the house should have been shown to the sister, Mary Catherine, ASAP. Only a few workers were investigated and after the first prime suspect, one of the workers, unexpectedly died of a brain aneurysm, the police pretty much gave up on the case. The investigation is where I think things are "fishy"--not on purpose, but just because of poor detective work--and I think the Smarts have come to realize this. I think some heads may roll among the detectives in charge of the case.
Rgirl

Re: Elizabeth Smart

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>but I really don't think there is anything more to the actual kidnapping than a mentally ill man who decided to provide himself and his wife with a beautiful young girl to replace the wife's daughter[/quote] Well, more like a second wife. According to the documents on The Smoking Gun web site he raped her the same night he took her. With the help of his wife. Disgusting.
www.thesmokinggun.com/arc...arge5.html

If the link doesn't work, go to their web site and look in the archives:
www.thesmokinggun.com

OK, now I have a question about the Smoking Gun. I thought that all those documents were confidential (well, at least some of them). But I guess it's legal (to put them on the Internet for everyone to see), since the site still exists...?

Btw, all those stories about people kidnapped and treated like slaves, things... there are no really words for that.

Edited to change "had sex with her" to "raped her", what was I thinking?

Btw, Ultra Violet's a Mormon? I've read her autobiography(?) and from what I rememeber (I read it about 10 years ago) she was pretty wild.

Re: Elizabeth Smart

Windspirit,
Yeah, Ultra Violet converted about 15 years ago. She's in a friend of mine's Ward. I read her autobiography, too. Some people may or may not be surprised that people do complete 180-degree turnarounds, from sex, drugs, and rock 'n roll to home, family, and church--and vice versa. In Utah, the vice versas are called Jack Mormons. Doesn't mean they've gone wild necessarily; it just means they were raised in the church and when they could decided for themselves, decided not to stay Mormon. To be a member of the LDS Church (Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, for those who don't know), one has to pay 10% of one's annual income to the church. If you don't pay, you are taken off the membership rolls. You can plead financial hardship, of course, which are handled on a case by case basis.

Very true about the second wife thing. Like this Emmanual guy, there are a lot of religions and cults that are offshoots of the Mormon church. Most of them separate themselves over polygamy. Polygamy was part of church doctrine until about the 1940s (I think). When the federal government said, "Either ban polygamy or no federal highway funding" the church president had a vision that polygamy was no longer okay.

Another Mormonism: Brigham Young aka Bring 'em Young. (Sorry any LDS Chursh members reading. Don't mean any disrespect.)

As for the report by "Smoking Gun," I think it comes under freedom of the press stuff. As for "Edited to change 'had sex with her' to 'raped her', what was I thinking?" I know what you mean. It was kind of like that with me after I wrote "replacement daughter." I should have edited it to "second wife." What was I thinking? I'd lived there long enough to know that with guys like that, a 14 or 15-year-old "new" daughter is synonymous with new wife. Guess it's just hard to go there, so to speak.

Anyway, that's another reason why Elizabeth wouldn't have run or called out. Sexual abuse like that can really subjugate a person quickly, especially when one is dependent on the abuser for survival. Similar thing happened to Patty Hearst.

This poor girl has a long hard road of psychological healing to do. Of course it's incredible that she's alive, but it's still an awful, awful thing.

Thanks for the links.
Rgirl