who's gonna win 2010 olympic part two

EvgeniRocks said:

He is a two-time Olympic champion whether anyone agrees with the judges or not, so there isn't anything he should feel bad about in regard to his accomplishments - nor do I believe he does or that he lacks confidence in his skill.

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In what universe? He's a one-time Olympic champion.

Hi, Buttercup & moviechick.

Yes, I know not everyone considers silver and bronze medalists as Olympic Champions. However, there are people out there that do, and even some which believe any athlete who participates in a Game is a Champion. A good example of the latter would be the site for the Beijing Olympics, they have all of their athletes who participated in an Olympic Game listed as Olympic Champions, regardless if they received a medal or not. I completely agree with their view, but I especially regard those who take any medal as a Champion.

Evgeni may not have won gold in 2002, but he won in the first place by simply qualifying to participate, and he did win by claiming a silver medal rather than nothing. So yes, in my book he is a two-time Olympic Champion, and there are others who occupy this same universe of thought with me.

EvgeniRocks said:

Yes, I know not everyone considers silver and bronze medalists as Olympic Champions. However, there are people out there that do, and even some which believe any athlete who participates in a Game is a Champion.

Evgeni may not have won gold in 2002, but he won in the first place by simply qualifying to participate, and he did win by claiming a silver medal rather than nothing. So yes, in my book he is a two-time Olympic Champion, and there are others who occupy this same universe of thought with me.

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Well, I see where you are comping from, but "won an Olympic title" is generally used in refernce to those who won gold. Even Plushenko's Olympic profile mentions only one title (http://www.olympic.org/uk/athletes/profiles/bio_uk.asp?PAR_I_ID=125979). I agree that everyone who participates in the Olympics is worthy of respect, but I don't consider all of them champions.

O/T - for a glimpse of what goes into an Olympic effort, ESPN has a very interesting ongoing series of articles about Kathryn Bertine, who has an athletic but not an Olympic-caliber background, as she tries to qualify for Beijing. It's been published since 2006 (here's the first one http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=olympianpart1), and is available through the e-ticket section of the website.

EvgeniRocks said:

Hi, Buttercup & moviechick.

Yes, I know not everyone considers silver and bronze medalists as Olympic Champions. However, there are people out there that do, and even some which believe any athlete who participates in a Game is a Champion. A good example of the latter would be the site for the Beijing Olympics, they have all of their athletes who participated in an Olympic Game listed as Olympic Champions, regardless if they received a medal or not. I completely agree with their view, but I especially regard those who take any medal as a Champion.

Evgeni may not have won gold in 2002, but he won in the first place by simply qualifying to participate, and he did win by claiming a silver medal rather than nothing. So yes, in my book he is a two-time Olympic Champion, and there are others who occupy this same universe of thought with me.

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Lost in translation.

Buttercup said:

Well, I see where you are comping from, but "won an Olympic title" is generally used in refernce to those who won gold. Even Plushenko's Olympic profile mentions only one title (http://www.olympic.org/uk/athletes/profiles/bio_uk.asp?PAR_I_ID=125979). I agree that everyone who participates in the Olympics is worthy of respect, but I don't consider all of them champions.

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As I said, I understand the title of Olympic Champion is used by a lot of people only in reference to gold medalists; nevertheless, it isn't a rule all people are required to see the title that way or that all people do. I'm sure we could go back and forth for quite awhile citing sources which reflect our individual opinions, but it would be easier and less time-consuming just to agree on disagreeing about what constitutes an Olympic Champion. And besides, I don't think it's realistic either of us would be able to sway the other to our point of view, if that's even important to begin with...it is what it is, and at least we both now know each other's opinion.

jennylovskt said:

Lost in translation.

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I don't know why, I mentioned two or three posts ago Plush is a two-time Champion unless you don't consider his silver as deserving of the title. Maybe I am just misunderstanding your comment, though...not sure what you are confused about.

Ah I just think you say the same with different words, when people say one is an Olympic Champion they refer only to the gold medalist but if they say one has an Olympic Title it can be gold, silver or bronze title, I ve also heard reporters commenting someone as with an Olympic title until the 8th place, in any case Plush has 2 Olympic medals and it is more than good enough .

EvgeniRocks said:

As I said, I understand the title of Olympic Champion is used by a lot of people only in reference to gold medalists; nevertheless, it isn't a rule all people are required to see the title that way or that all people do. I'm sure we could go back and forth for quite awhile citing sources which reflect our individual opinions, but it would be easier and less time-consuming just to agree on disagreeing about what constitutes an Olympic Champion. And besides, I don't think it's realistic either of us would be able to sway the other to our point of view, if that's even important to begin with...it is what it is, and at least we both now know each other's opinion.



I don't know why, I mentioned two or three posts ago Plush is a two-time Champion unless you don't consider his silver as deserving of the title. Maybe I am just misunderstanding your comment, though...not sure what you are confused about.

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Please don't get me wrong. I am a Plushenko fan. But what Buttercup explained was the English I understood, and I believe that was the way the English speaking people referred to.

Plushenko was a two time Olympic medalist. He was an Olympic champion in 2006. The 2002 Olympic champion was Yagudin, not Plushenko. There is a chance that Plushenko could be a three time Olympic medalist. Isn't that exciting?

If he had partcipated in 1998 Olympics(he was unlucky) he would attend 3 games until now and maybe 4 (2010) or maybe also OG 2014!!! when he will be 31(I am only dreaming I know although it would not be impossible, age wise), but maybe his whole carrier would have changed if he attended the 1998 Olympics so I do not complain
As for the titles it is possible that people get confused, he has gained so many golds, we have lost counting!

Well, winning a silver or bronze medal at Worlds does not get you a "world title" or make you a "World Champion" so why does it have a different meaning at the Olympics? I have never heard anyone call the silver or bronze medalist the "Olympic champion". If those are the rules, then I guess we should just say that about all the people who ever medaled at the Olympics..in that case, Michelle Kwan and Irina Slutskaya are both two-time Olympic champions.

Champion (in the sports meaning) = Winner.
1. a person who has defeated all opponents in a competition or series of competitions, so as to hold first place:
2. anything that takes first place in competition

There isn't a definition of "champion" in the dictionary that says "someone who made it to the competition."

Bronze and Silver are called medalists, 2nd or 3rd place, runner-ups, etc. For example, Roger Federer does NOT have a French Open title because he was not #1. Making it to the final round doesn't give you the title. Unless you're using "champion" in the personal character sense of the world, it means 1st place ONLY. In that case, it still wouldn't make sense to use "2-time Olympic champion" for a competition he only won once.

Plushy already has a great winning record-- there's no need to embellish on it and stretch the meanings of words (or in this case, make up meanings) to make him look better. Titles are not a matter of opinion. They are recorded fact. He does not have two Olympic titles. He's a ONE-time Olympic champion. Actually, lot of people would love to be a one-time Olympic champion.

Sorry if this sounds picky, but I was taught to believe that words have actual definitions and aren't just thrown around to mean anything,

You are right but i didnt write the titles to make him look better i just wrote what I think of.
You wrote the definition of a champion, which is correct, is there a definition of title?Cause title doesnt imply the best, first etc...
I m pretty sure that in Olympics they dont say runner up , I know they use it at Worlds cause there you search for the World Champion cause the competition is called World Championship and not the second or third can be called that, but Olympics is a different kind of competition, mainly it is the history, character and the spirit of the Games, the whole philosophy of it (as it should have been although), I know for sure that in my country where the games were born all the medalist are called champions (ex. golden champion in swimming of 1996 Olympics, silven champ) and that is how it was since ancient years, people who finished 1-8 place were considered champions and were honoured ...but I know that nowdays in the sports world they dont use champion for anyother but the first, so Plush is not for sure Olympic champion twice.
I just think that they use silver or bronze title though for the Olympics and not second, runner up..it has to do with the spirit of competing.

I assume that English is not your native tongue, but the definitions of "champion" and "title-holder" = 1st place. I don't think anyone uses them to label the non-winner. This is just my linguistic side that gets a little picky.

Title = championship, therefore WIN. It's on dictionary.com
5. Sports. the championship: He won the title three years in a row.

You don't own the title unless you won. The 2nd place finisher does not have the title but you can say that he was the runner-up for the title.

Yes, you can use "champion" in a moral sense to describe someone's character, but then it's ridiculous to say something like Olympic champion or World champion if the person didn't win those competitions. And you can be considered a "champion" for human rights or a "champion" at heart, which is an entirely different meaning. It's like getting an A for effort.

"Champion" in the competitive sense means 1st place. This definition is NOT an opinion, without getting too deep into post-modernism. It is a literal meaning that is in the dictionary. There's no: "in my opinion, Johnny Weir is the Olympic champion". That's like saying "in my opinion, the Lakers beat the Celtics last night" (they didn't).

As far as I know, the Olympics are still competitions and therefore the same semantic rules apply to them as the World championships, Wimbledon, etc. If you won a silver medal, you are the Olympic silver medalist NOT the Olympic champion.

seniorita said:

so Plush is not for sure Olympic champion twice.

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I think that I , myself firstly, I ve already wrote that silver metalist is not the Champion, so no need to argue.

I just asked if the word title mirrors the same thing, because as a plain word title can be used in anything.
I also wrote that in Greece they used to use the word champion for anyone till the 8th place in ancient years to picture the whole competing spirit of the games , but i added that it is not like that in the sport world now. And I added that just now we use championship for the medalists of Olympics,maybe because is an event of every 4 years rather important (to us at least) which is not compared to every year worlds, euros, historically wise.
No need to argue I just didnt know title reflects the same meaning as championship.

The sports meaning of title refers to the championship. The other meanings like title of a book or movie are completely useless in this context. And I'm pretty sure they weren't speaking English in Ancient Greece.

moviechick said:

Champion (in the sports meaning) = Winner.
1. a person who has defeated all opponents in a competition or series of competitions, so as to hold first place:
2. anything that takes first place in competition

There isn't a definition of "champion" in the dictionary that says "someone who made it to the competition."

Bronze and Silver are called medalists, 2nd or 3rd place, runner-ups, etc. For example, Roger Federer does NOT have a French Open title because he was not #1. Making it to the final round doesn't give you the title. Unless you're using "champion" in the personal character sense of the world, it means 1st place ONLY. In that case, it still wouldn't make sense to use "2-time Olympic champion" for a competition he only won once.

Plushy already has a great winning record-- there's no need to embellish on it and stretch the meanings of words (or in this case, make up meanings) to make him look better. Titles are not a matter of opinion. They are recorded fact. He does not have two Olympic titles. He's a ONE-time Olympic champion. Actually, lot of people would love to be a one-time Olympic champion.

Sorry if this sounds picky, but I was taught to believe that words have actual definitions and aren't just thrown around to mean anything,

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I'm sure the individuals who run these sites would welcome your opinions on why they are wrong, and why they should stop making up meanings and throwing around definitions to suit their purpose:

http://www.pentathlon.org/index.php?id=157

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9437364/Olympic-Champions-XX-Winter-Games-Turin

http://en.beijing2008.cn/84/72/column211717284.shtml

Just because you personally haven't heard of someone other than a gold medalist being referred to as an Olympic Champion doesn't mean it's incorrect to do so. If you can show me something official - like a guideline - which clearly and specifically states it is a rule and/or protocol only 1st place Olympic Game winners are to be considered Champions, then I will concede you are right. Good luck. (Examples like the one you used with the Lakers and Celtics aren't applicable because there is no second or third place awarded as in the Olympics.)

You can think I'm wrong or ridiculous all you want, but Evgeni Plushenko is a TWO-time Olympic Champion in my view, and that's not going to change until he becomes a THREE-time Champion in 2010.

EvgeniRocks, I don't think you are ridiculous, and if you see Plushenko as a two-time champion, good for you. However, moviechick is correct that in the sense of common use of the English language, an Olympic champion or title holder is the winner of the event. This is why Plushenko's Olympic profile, which I linked to before, does not list him as a two-time champion, but as having won one title. I would posit that the IOC is the authority on this matter, not the Union Internationale de Pentathlon Moderne.

Also, when in doubt, check the dictionary - in this case, the Oxford English dictionary: champion: • noun 1. a person who has won a sporting contest or other competition. 2. a defender of a cause or person. (Emphasis mine). http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/champion?view=uk

Evgeni Plushenko is a great and accomplished skater, but a two-time Olympic champion he is not - as of 2008, as you noted. Personally, I hope he doesn't become a two-time champion, and if I had to pick who will win in 2010, I'd say that barring injuries and/or a meltdown, it should be either Takahashi or Joubert.

moviechick said:

The sports meaning of title refers to the championship. The other meanings like title of a book or movie are completely useless in this context. And I'm pretty sure they weren't speaking English in Ancient Greece.

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Hmm, I m also pretty sure that when the Olympics were on back then,english language wasnt even a spoken one, not in the form we know it, so no they didnt speak english, but they used the greek word meaning "championship", I dont even understand the point of this comment, I suppose that even if our discussion were in japanese, still the statements would be the same.
And I meant "title" in sports, not books and movies, I just asked if there is a definition of title meaning championship.Out of curiocity but nevermind.
I dont care if Plush will be Olympic Champion for the second time, I hope he will if he deserves it but I would also like to see Takahashi there. I think he is the only one from the new skaters that has all the ingredients to be a memorable champion.

Buttercup said:

EvgeniRocks, I don't think you are ridiculous, and if you see Plushenko as a two-time champion, good for you. However, moviechick is correct that in the sense of common use of the English language, an Olympic champion or title holder is the winner of the event. This is why Plushenko's Olympic profile, which I linked to before, does not list him as a two-time champion, but as having won one title. I would posit that the IOC is the authority on this matter, not the Union Internationale de Pentathlon Moderne.

Also, when in doubt, check the dictionary - in this case, the Oxford English dictionary: champion: • noun 1. a person who has won a sporting contest or other competition. 2. a defender of a cause or person. (Emphasis mine). http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/champion?view=uk

Evgeni Plushenko is a great and accomplished skater, but a two-time Olympic champion he is not - as of 2008, as you noted. Personally, I hope he doesn't become a two-time champion, and if I had to pick who will win in 2010, I'd say that barring injuries and/or a meltdown, it should be either Takahashi or Joubert.

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It is not my motivation to be argumentative on this subject, but since several people recently placed my comment at the center of debate in this thread - and have continued to keep it there, I feel I have the right to defend my position.

As I have explained ad nauseam, I grasp the fact many people view the title of Olympic Champion as belonging to the 1st place winner (as you say, in the sense of common use of the English language). However, I posted those links to show moviechick this is not always this case, that there are reputable sources who have a broader definition of the title. I agree IOC would be the final authority, but I have heard their representatives call silver and bronze medalists Olympic Champions on occasion. Maybe the person speaking was in error, but all I can do is tell you what I've witnessed since I have no evidence to corroborate this.

Based on the definitions you both have posted, Evgeni would be considered a champion because he did win, he just won silver instead of gold. If it were a contest in which there is only one winner - as in 1st place only (like several of the examples moviechick used), then I would say the arguments you both use are valid. I mean, if the actions of the Committee were to reflect there only being one winner, then why go to the trouble of giving second and third place if those doesn't count as a win.

Really, we are all entitled to opinions and point of view, and though I wish to defend mine because I feel I'm being unjustly attacked for something I've already expressed numerous times is an opinion, I'm done debating this because I don't see any further point to it.

Evgeni Plushenko is a two-time Olympic Champion to more than just me. :agree:

EvgeniRocks said:

I'm sure the individuals who run these sites would welcome your opinions on why they are wrong, and why they should stop making up meanings and throwing around definitions to suit their purpose:

http://www.pentathlon.org/index.php?id=157

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9437364/Olympic-Champions-XX-Winter-Games-Turin

http://en.beijing2008.cn/84/72/column211717284.shtml

Just because you personally haven't heard of someone other than a gold medalist being referred to as an Olympic Champion doesn't mean it's incorrect to do so. If you can show me something official - like a guideline - which clearly and specifically states it is a rule and/or protocol only 1st place Olympic Game winners are to be considered Champions, then I will concede you are right. Good luck. (Examples like the one you used with the Lakers and Celtics aren't applicable because there is no second or third place awarded as in the Olympics.)

You can think I'm wrong or ridiculous all you want, but Evgeni Plushenko is a TWO-time Olympic Champion in my view, and that's not going to change until he becomes a THREE-time Champion in 2010.

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May I point out something that I don't understand?

In the link you have provided above, regarding to Olympic-Champions-XX-Winter-Games-Turin

scroll down to figure skating section, it stated that the gold medalist Yevgeny Plushchenko (although I don't know who he is, I assume that it's Evgeni Plushenko), silver medalist Jeffrey Buttle, and bronze medalist Evan Lysacek.:scratch:

Would you please kindly light me up that in what Olympic winter game that Buttle got silver and Lysacek got bronze?

Also the third link is a Chinese website link. I am pretty sure that Chinese don't speak English as their mother tongue.

The first link seems not an English based organization link either.

jennylovskt said:

May I point out something that I don't understand?

In the link you have provided above, regarding to Olympic-Champions-XX-Winter-Games-Turin

scroll down to figure skating section, it stated that the gold medalist Yevgeny Plushchenko (although I don't know who he is, I assume that it's Evgeni Plushenko), silver medalist Jeffrey Buttle, and bronze medalist Evan Lysacek.:scratch:

Would you please kindly light me up that in what Olympic winter game that Buttle got silver and Lysacek got bronze?

either.

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Stéphane Lambiel got silver and Jeffrey Buttle got bronze.

I'm shocked at such a big mistake in such a prestigeouse encylopedia. I've sent them a message for them to correct it.

There is only ONE winner at the Olympics. It's just that the two runner-ups also get a physical prize (silver and bronze medals). This is true for many other sports as well like tennis. The winner gets the big cup trophy while the 2nd place finisher gets that plate thing. There is no way in hell that the two are considered equal in any way. No one would call the 2nd place finisher the "champion" or the "title-holder", yet you could say he still "won" that silver plate thing; but he's NOT the champion. It's in the freakin' dictionary that champion = the winner of a competition. How much clearer can it get?

Yes, I suppose you can see Plushenko as anything you'd like. Hell, to you he could even be a 4000-time Olympic champion, but only in your mind.

Last time I checked, we're all using English here. Since that is the case, I think it's better to stick with the English definitions of words. Perhaps there is less of a distinction in other languages, but since we're not using those languages, it's probably better not to make up definitions. Especially since there is nothing wrong with being a ONE-time Olympic champion. To try to inflate his record is just ridiculous considering he already has a great one and he doesn't need fans stretching the rules of the English language to give him titles he doesn't have. Do you also consider him a 5-time world champion as well? Somehow I feel like you wouldn't be arguing this point so tenaciously if it were say, Michelle Kwan or Elvis Stojko, who were being touted as a two-time Olympic champions... I mean, I have yet to encounter any Irina or Michelle supporters so fanatic that they'd call them 2-time Olympic champions.

Plus, if you truly believe that just making it to the podium makes you an Olympic champion, then I must say, the term "Olympic champion" loses a lot of its prestige/luster since there would be three times as many.

Anyways, this argument is pretty ridiculous and is completely off-topic/annoying. Definitions are all in the dictionary. People are free to ignore them as they wish.

BTW, those sites linked-- none of them specifically refer to anyone as "olympic champions". It seems the page is titled Olympic champions because they show who won each event, and its like oh, btw here are the 2nd and 3rd place finishers. I have yet to see any legit reference that calls Plushenko or like Phillipe Candelero (2-time medalist, no?) 2-time Olympic champions.