PCS Scores at Worlds

perry125 · Apr 1, 2007

I was looking at the worlds ladies LP and noticed that Mao's PCS seemed pretty high so I looked at the official results page and this is what I found.

Mao Asada
Skating Skills 8.00
Transition / Linking Footwork 7.61
Performance / Execution 8.07
Choreography / Composition 7.82
Interpretation 8.18
Judges Total Program Component Score (factored) 63.49

Stephan Lambiel
Skating Skills 7.86
Transition / Linking Footwork 7.61
Performance / Execution 7.89
Choreography / Composition 7.79
Interpretation 7.93
Judges Total Program Component Score (factored) 78.16

I stilled haven't figured out how COP works so could someone explain to me what this means? Are the judges saying that Mao had better skating skills, performance / execution, choreography / composition, interpretation than Stephan? It seemed to me that Stephan's LP is in a completely different league compared to Mao's in all of the above.
Or do they just give higher scores to the ladies because of the lower factor? (Then why do they have the lower factor in the first place?)
I still think Mao deserved to place above Yuna but these scores are ??? to me.

Mathman · Apr 1, 2007

IMHO Lambiel's are too low.

But I think the judges mostly use the PCSs in the same way that they used the old 2nd mark -- as a place-holder for ordinals. If this were not the case we would see more skaters getting, say, 8.00 in skating skills and 6.00 in interpretation.

If they had given Lambiel higher PCSs he might have overtaken Takahashi, and that wouldn't have been right because Takahashi skated great. But if they had upped Takahashi's scores then he might have overtaken Joubert, and THAT wouldn't have been right because Joubert deserved to win overall.

It's just like the old days when judges carefully gave the skater they wanted to win a 5.6, 5.9 and the skater they wanted to come in second a 5.7, 5.7.

Personally, I have no objection to this, although it is against the spirit of the CoP. It's a judged sport. Judges judge.

About Mao's marks, I think the judges just said, well, Mao skated the best free program, so she should get the highest scores. (One judge gave her a +3.00 GOE for her two-footed triple Axel.)

Mathman · Apr 1, 2007

perry125 said:
...Or do they just give higher scores to the ladies because of the lower factor? (Then why do they have the lower factor in the first place?)

That is an interesting question. The purpose of the factoring is to keep the technical scores and the program component scores of roughly equal importance. But with skaters like Mao and Miki pushing the technical envelope, they may have to adjust this in the future. Mao scored 6 points higher on tech than PCS and Miki a whopping 8 points higher.

On the other hand, if you make a technical mistake, that's reversed. Both Yu-na and Kimmie got higher PCSs than tech.

iloveaxel · Apr 1, 2007

Mathman said:
That is an interesting question. The purpose of the factoring is to keep the technical scores and the program component scores of roughly equal importance. But with skaters like Mao and Miki pushing the technical envelope, they may have to adjust this in the future. Mao scored 6 points higher on tech than PCS and Miki a whopping 8 points higher.

On the other hand, if you make a technical mistake, that's reversed. Both Yu-na and Kimmie got higher PCSs than tech.

Mao's PCS is 13 points higher than Joannie's. It's insane. It shows you how deep Joannie has fallen from 'grace'.

demarinis5 · Apr 1, 2007

iloveaxel said:
Mao's PCS is 13 points higher than Joannie's. It's insane. It shows you how deep Joannie has fallen from 'grace'.

Gee you never miss an opportunity to insult Joannie. It would be nice
if JMO or IMO were used after some of your comments.

iloveaxel · Apr 1, 2007

demarinis5 said:
Gee you never miss an opportunity to insult Joannie. It would be nice
if JMO or IMO were used after some of your comments.

Nope, I actually started to like her this season. Definitely believe her PCS should be much higher than Emily's.

debdelilah · Apr 1, 2007

Mao's PCS: 63.49
Yu-Na's:61.64
Miki's: 59.45

Mao's final score: 194.45
Yu-Na's final score: 186.14

Stephane's PCS: 78.16
Daisuke's: 76.92
Brian's:76.64

Brian's final score: 240.85
Daisuke's: 237.95
Stephane's: 233.35

Mao's PCS are on the high side, but they could have been much lower without affecting the final standings. Even as high as they were, they didn't hold her above Miki when she had a clean skate and got relatively low PCS.

For the men's free skate, if you look at the protocols, you can see that many
of the judges held some preference regarding the top three men. Almost half the judges have Brian's PCS higher than Daisuke's; Judge 11, who gave Stephane the highest PCS, also gave Brian much higher scores than Daisuke. Stephane's PCS scores were highest by the same margin as Mao's were.

Technical base elements(leaving out GOE):
Brian: 71.47
Daisuke: 79.43
Stephane: 78.22

I'm not trying to make a "wuzrobbed" argument for Takahashi--he himself, in his interview, seemed suprised that he won the freeskate, knowing how others skated. But just looking at the men's PCS in terms of how they were scored against each other, rather than how they were scored numbers-wise against the ladies, I don't think Stephane has the easiest argument for getting short shrift.

demarinis5 · Apr 1, 2007

iloveaxel said:
Nope, I actually started to like her this season. Definitely believe her PCS should be much higher than Emily's.

Well I agree with you. Sorry if I misinterpreted your post.

chuckm · Apr 1, 2007

The reason why Joannie doesn't get higher PCS scores than Emily is that Joannie skates tentatively, as if she was skating on an eggshell. Emily skates with confidence. If Joannie isn't confident of her skating skills, the judges aren't going to be confident about them.

slutskayafan21 · Apr 1, 2007

As an admitedly biased Lambiel fan I find his PCS lower then they should be as well, and I have found that for a long time, even moreso this year with his stunning new programs. However he still got the highest PCS in the free skate, and second highest in the short for a bad skate, so I am not going to complain too much. Takahashi IMO was severely undermarked in the short so increasing Lambiel's PCS would not have upped his result in my mind. I would not have minded Lambiel winning the free skate though.

I dont think you can compare PCS for men and women neccessarily. Asada's PCS are partly on her skating quality but partly on her charisma on the ice IMHO.

tagmats · Apr 1, 2007

If Mao's PCS is high,I must say Yu Na's PCS is pretty high. :biggrin:

Zuranthium · Apr 1, 2007

debdelilah said:
Stephane's PCS: 78.16
Daisuke's: 76.92
Brian's:76.64

I thought these were pretty funny. I would have given out something like 82 for Lambiel, 79 for Takahashi, 75 for Joubert.

~Z

slutskayafan21 · Apr 1, 2007

Zuranthium said:
I thought these were pretty funny. I would have given out something like 82 for Lambiel, 79 for Takahashi, 75 for Joubert.

~Z

Sounds about right.

Mathman · Apr 1, 2007

IMHO the ISU and its judges are still in the process of working out exactly what it is that they want to reward with the PCSs. Is "charisma" a "skating skill," for instance? Is it a "transition?"

On the ESPN coverage of Worlds Dick Button and Kurt Browning had a brief discussion of "artists who are athletes" (Lambiel, Takahashi, Weir, Buttle) versus "athletes who are trying to become artists" (Joubert, Lysacek, Verner). The judges seem to give out about the same marks to both groups.

gkelly · Apr 1, 2007

Mathman said:
IMHO the ISU and its judges are still in the process of working out exactly what it is that they want to reward with the PCSs. Is "charisma" a "skating skill," for instance? Is it a "transition?"

Nope. So it really shouldn't affect the Skating Skills or Transitions components at all.

But it is directly related to "physical, emotional and intellectual involvement," "style, individuality and personality," and especially "projection," and at least indirectly to "projection," so that's half the Performance/Execution component right there.

And the "variety and contrast" part of the P/E component, plus much of the Interpretation component especially "the use of finesse to reflect the nuances of the music" where "finesse is the skater's refined, artful manipulations of the nuances" [which are] "the personal artistic ways of bringing subtle variations to the intensity, tempo and dynamics of the music" are not so much products of charisma as a pre-existing quality, but they can certainly contribute to the impression that a skater possesses that quality.

So Performance/Execution and Interpretation are the components that I would expect to see charismatic skaters do better at than less charismatic skaters with comparable technical skills.

Leaving aside the fact that people tend to think more favorably of charismatic individuals in general and thus perceive whatever they do as better than they would without the charisma, in all areas and not specifically in skating.

Mathman · Apr 1, 2007

gkelly said:
Leaving aside the fact that people tend to think more favorably of charismatic individuals in general and thus perceive whatever they do as better than they would without the charisma, in all areas and not specifically in skating.

Thanks for the true dope, as usual. But I think this last point is quite telling.

In fact, the skaters that get 8's in performance/execution and interpretation because of their outstanding physical, emotional and intellectual involvement and their refined, artful manipulations of nuances -- they also seem automatically to get 8's for transitions and skating skills.

As for the men, the more quads they do, the more nuanced and artful they become.

enlight78 · Apr 2, 2007

If the judges are going to continue to misuse or corrupt the PCs. I say just cut them out all together. Joubert and Plushy seems to win anyway with only a smidgen of choreography and interpretation. Skating skills and Performance/E just follow the TEs. So there is no point. I really don't believe Joubert deserve to win. He doesn't have the full package. IMHO Takahashi beat him hands down. I think female and male PCs should be comparable except for skating skills(women and men are just not equal in that field. Or there is no point having the limited factor. There is one thing to have a judged sport. It is another to have a placed sport like your 4-H poster contest. Figure skating deserve more respect than that. The skaters who have the talent to present and do the tricks deserve more respect than that. I find the judging disrespectful to the sport and skaters. Until the scores are true to the performances skating will be no more than a jumping pageant;not to much better than it's cousin the beauty pageant.

amber68 · Apr 2, 2007

Skating Skill and P/E do not follow TES. Maybe you wanted to say that P/E, T,C,I follow SS. IMO Joubert deserves to win because he has the package required by a figure skating competition (which is an athletic event, by the way): he has good basics, can jump (jumps are part of figure skating wether you like them or not), has good spins, decent choreo and interpretation.
The skaters who have the talent to present must alo have the talent to do the tricks both in SP and LP. Takahashi would have won if he had had a better SP : his SP was easier than Joubert's and Takahashi's execution was worse.
I am not a Joubert fan but I am fed up with all these "the artists should win" and "we hate jumps" theories. If someone doesn't like the competitions as they are (jumps included), he/she can watch only the galas: plenty of emotion and stroking -around -while-artisticating there!

enlight78 · Apr 2, 2007

amber68 said:
Skating Skill and P/E do not follow TES. Maybe you wanted to say that P/E, T,C,I follow SS.

My point is that skaters who execute technical elements of high difficulty well always get high Skating Skills and P/E. They are going to get high marks for both so they are being double rewarded. Which is fine for me. I just think it is redundant.

amber68 said:
IMO Joubert deserves to win because he has the package required by a figure skating competition (which is an athletic event, by the way): he has good basics, can jump (jumps are part of figure skating wether you like them or not), has good spins, decent choreo and interpretation.
The skaters who have the talent to present must alo have the talent to do the tricks both in SP and LP. Takahashi would have won if he had had a better SP : his SP was easier than Joubert's and Takahashi's execution was worse.
I am not a Joubert fan but I am fed up with all these "the artists should win" and "we hate jumps" theories. If someone doesn't like the competitions as they are (jumps included), he/she can watch only the galas: plenty of emotion and stroking -around -while-artisticating there!

I love jumps. I love artistry. There is nothing in my quote about hating jumps. If I didn't like competitions I wouldn't watch them. I would agree with you if the TEs was all that mattered.ISU have a set of rules for the sport. I am complaining about the misrepresentation of these rules the judges are showing.The sport in theory suppose to be 50/50 not 60/40 not 80/20 or 100/0.Takahashi program may have been technically less difficult in the short , but his choreography was definitely more difficult. My point is that Takahashi's PCs were almost Identical to Joubert's in the long. If you believe that is a true representation of their performances that night, one of us need glasses. Maybe it's me. If ISU took the PCs out of the scores I would have nothing to complain about because Joubert won fair and square based on the new rules. Personally I find skating shows boring. I don't like a program without jumps . I don't like program without artistry. I don't want give up either. I'm sorry but my gold medal goes to the skater that gives me my cake and ice cream too. If skaters with complete balance packages keep getting silver, I think they will get the message if I want to win just put two or three quads in a boring program. PCs shall surely come up with the difficulty.

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 2, 2007

enlight - I agree with you. The fault lies in biased judges and the best way to accomplish bias is in the PCS scores. They are so ambiguous as to what they mean exactly.

Choreography is not made up by the skater but by a paid choreographer. To judge that, one has to simply agree that the skater is following the choeography be it simple or complex. Then one comes to transitions which, of course, is choreography so how does a judge manage both?

The whole system of PCS designations should be refined and still it will be a bias supplement to the Tech. That's the way it is in Judgeland.

Joe

PCS Scores at Worlds

perry125

Mathman

Mathman

iloveaxel

Match Penalty

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!

iloveaxel

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debdelilah

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!

chuckm

slutskayafan21

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tagmats

Zuranthium

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slutskayafan21

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Mathman

gkelly

Mathman

enlight78

amber68

enlight78

Joesitz (RIP)

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