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Thread: Value of the Double Axel increased to 3.5 - what about the rest of the doubles?

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    Value of the Double Axel increased to 3.5 - what about the rest of the doubles?

    It seems to me that the value of all the other Double jumps should be increased considering the extra .2 points that the Double Axle was just gifted with. This is something I've wanted to see even before the Double Axle change, however.

    Right now I think it's a problem that doing a Double Loop in combination is only worth .2 more than if you did a toeloop (1.5 points vs. 1.3). The difficulty of doing something like a 3Lutz/2Loop in comparision to a 3Lutz/2Toe is worth more than just .2 extra points, imo. Something like this would be good:

    Toeloop - 1.3
    Salchow - 1.4
    Flip - 1.6
    Loop - 1.8
    Lutz - 2.0

    EDIT: Also, read on the second page about underrotated jumps getting their own points.

    ~Z
    Last edited by Zuranthium; 05-20-2007 at 02:33 PM.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I like it!

    About the double Axel jump, the ISU has always regarded it as the "easiest triple" rather than the "hardest double." If you look at the table of values, it always goes like this:

    ...
    2F
    2Lz
    ----------
    2A
    3T
    3S
    ...
    ----------

    Not

    ...
    2F
    2Lz
    2A
    ----------
    3T
    3S
    ....
    -----------

    So I suppose this is the reason for upping the value of the double Axel to 3.5, to put it in line with the "other triples."

    I'm not sure I like that reasoning (if that's really what they had in mind). They didn't do 3A's and quads that way:

    3A = 7.5
    4T = 9.0
    4S = 9.5, etc.

    I also think there should be a bonus for presenting all five triple and a double Axel (ladies) and all six triples (men).

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    When anyone falls (seldom) on a double axel, it is for me a boo boo. I think the jump in today's world is simply a part of footwork.

    Joe

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    more people fall on double axel than you think. Maybe not the world cahmpions, but to the girls at natioanls, the double axel is a difficult jump. Look at Caroline Zhang. She fell on the double axel in her Natioanls short program and it probably cost her the title.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    What I like about the double Axel is that, to the audience, it makes the maximum impact with the least danger. To me, a nice double Axel looks just as pretty as a triple jump, especially when it is timed to a musical highlight.

    A CoP question. In the olden days skaters would sometimes use double jumps and single Axels just as a part of the overall choreography, not necessarily for the "look at me jumping" effect. If a skater did, say, a double flip just for the fun of it, would that use up one of his jumping passes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    If a skater did, say, a double flip just for the fun of it, would that use up one of his jumping passes?
    Yes. Although, you can still do single axles and plain double jumps as part of your choreography...they just have to come after ALL of your real jumping passes.

    ~Z

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I also think there should be a bonus for presenting all five triple and a double Axel (ladies) and all six triples (men).
    Yes, agreed. Give them a bonus point. It would have to be decided as to what constitutes "presenting them", though. IMO, having greater than a -1 GOE on the element. Doing a Quad should also count as the required Triple of that type (so Joubert at Cup of Russia, even though he doubled out on both his is Triple Toeloops, would still get the bonus since he did two QUAD toeloops).

    ~Z
    Last edited by Zuranthium; 05-20-2007 at 02:27 PM.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    As for how hard the double Axel is, just for fun I checked the Worlds ladies SP protocols. Of the top 12, all except 1 (Meier) scored above the 3.30 base mark.

    Of the bottom 12, all except 2 scored below the 3.30 base mark (those 2 had 3.30 exactly).

    Of the 46 ladies in the competition, 10 either fell or popped the jump.

    With a few notable exceptions (Yan Liu did a fine double Axel but came 21st in the SP; Alissa Czisny got 0.00 for a total pop), you could almost use the double Axel alone for placements.

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    I am not impressed with this change. According to ISU 1445 is was done to tweak the value of the 2A compared to CCoSp4 and SpSq4. Any attempt to get the points of all the jumps and jump combinations consistent with the points for the spins and the sequences is futile. After 4 years now, the SoV isn't even consistent for the jumps alone, no less the jumps relative to everything else.

    The SoV is like trying to adjust the shape of a balloon. You can push in on it one place, but it just bulges out with a problem somewhere else.

    Also, as is to be expected, the ISU is only thinking about how this affects the big kids. For those of us who have to worry about all the divisions in USFSA competition this is not a welcome change. Now a -3 2A gets 1.4 points, which is more than a +1 1A. and only 0.4 less than a +2 1A. This only encourages the lower level skaters (Juvenile and Intermediate) even more than before to place difficulty done badly above quality skating, and developing good skating technique. For the developmental levels this is a bad thing

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    Quote Originally Posted by gsrossano View Post
    Also, as is to be expected, the ISU is only thinking about how this affects the big kids. For those of us who have to worry about all the divisions in USFSA competition this is not a welcome change. Now a -3 2A gets 1.4 points, which is more than a +1 1A. and only 0.4 less than a +2 1A. This only encourages the lower level skaters (Juvenile and Intermediate) even more than before to place difficulty done badly above quality skating, and developing good skating technique. For the developmental levels this is a bad thing
    Although I disagree with your general point (it's a coach's job to make sure the student develops properly, the points don't affect that), I do think that the negative GOE values for the double axle should be increased to .8. Negative GOE for Triple Toe should also be decreased to .9 (you currently get 0 points if you fall on a Triple Toe...that isn't right).

    ~Z

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    When anyone falls (seldom) on a double axel, it is for me a boo boo. I think the jump in today's world is simply a part of footwork.

    Joe
    Tell that to the thousands of kids in the rinks busting a gut to land a double axel. Just becuase a handful of skaters in the world are able to whip off a double axel with ease, doesn't mean its easy or that anyone can do it if they try.

    Ant

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    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuranthium View Post
    Although I disagree with your general point (it's a coach's job to make sure the student develops properly, the points don't affect that), I do think that the negative GOE values for the double axle should be increased to .8. Negative GOE for Triple Toe should also be decreased to .9 (you currently get 0 points if you fall on a Triple Toe...that isn't right).

    ~Z
    What??

    Why on earth should you get any points for falling on a triple toe? - Fine you got into the air and (if ratified) presumably got the full three revolutions in the air - if you can't hold the landing why should you get any points?

    Ant

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    Quote Originally Posted by antmanb View Post
    What??

    Why on earth should you get any points for falling on a triple toe? - Fine you got into the air and (if ratified) presumably got the full three revolutions in the air - if you can't hold the landing why should you get any points?

    Ant
    Because every other jump works out to still have some points left over after deducting the -3 GOE (which is less than 3.00 points for double and single jumps) and the 1.00 fall deduction. Triple toe is the only one with no net points for the effort.

    Quads and triple axels should probably have more than 3.00 deducted for the -3 GOE though; they're worth so many points to start with that they're still worth quite a lot even with a fall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Because every other jump works out to still have some points left over after deducting the -3 GOE (which is less than 3.00 points for double and single jumps) and the 1.00 fall deduction. Triple toe is the only one with no net points for the effort.

    Quads and triple axels should probably have more than 3.00 deducted for the -3 GOE though; they're worth so many points to start with that they're still worth quite a lot even with a fall.
    Yes, agreed on all of this.

    Increase the negative GOE of Triple Axle to 1.1 and increase the negative GOE of Quad Toe/Sal to 1.2 and Quad Loop/Flip/Lutz to 1.3.

    ~Z

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zuranthium View Post
    (it's a coach's job to make sure the student develops properly, the points don't affect that)~Z
    That is rather naive on several levels. Coaches of Juvenile skaters, for example, are under tremendous pressure (from parents) to include the 2A whether the skater has the jump or not. There was a longstanding rule (no more since IJS) that a poorly executed double should not be worth more than a well executed single (and same for triple vs. double). Yet the worst possible 2A (not just a poorly executed one, but the worst possible one) gets more points than a well executed (+1) single -- mainly because the point reduction for negative GoEs is too low for the 2A. When they raised the base value for the jump, they should have also increased the reductions for the negative GoEs.

    I think most officials would agree with me that in the developmental levels, the emphasis should be on quality over badly done dificulty, and the rules should be structured to reward that.

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