A need for new rules to qualify skaters for Worlds

Zuranthium · May 17, 2007

With the amazing amount of talent that certain countries are seeing, I think it's definitely time to abolish the silly "maximum of 3 skaters per country" rule. 5 Japanese ladies won medals on the Grand Prix circuit this past season and there's no reason why all 5 of them shouldn't have been able to go to Worlds.

IMO, the ISU needs to come up with.....EDIT: Read below for details.

~Z

attyfan · May 17, 2007

Would those qualifying by means of "point totals" be in addition to the "maximum of three per country"? If not, how is it decided what countries (if any) don't get to send any skaters at all, or, get their numbers reduced?

Mathman · May 17, 2007

The ISU (I hope this is not just my imagination) does seem to be moving, albeit at glacial speed, in the direction of centering the sport on the athlete instead of the National Federation.

In a sport like tennis, for instance, it doesn't matter at all what country a player comes from. The top-ranked players are invited to Wimbledon, or whatever.

But the ISU is an association of member federations. So the idea is, each national federation gets to send someone to the World championships (then there are a few extra spots left over so some federations get to send two or three). It's all very Olympic.

Mafke · May 17, 2007

Mathman said:
It's all very Olympic.

Olympic centered = crap

I'm all for giving skaters from small countries more shots at places at grand prix events and restricting worlds to the best regardless of country.
Keeping Suguri out of the world championships while allowing Helga Noedge from Nowherelandia to attend accomplishes what, exactly?

Justlooking · May 17, 2007

Mafke said:
Helga Noedge from Nowherelandia

gio · May 17, 2007

ISU must give equal opportunity for all countries. If not USA, Japan, Russia, France and Canada will always have top skaters and the other countries nothing, because they won't have the possibility to send skaters to competitions and develop them.
So my idea will be, drop the country restriction at Worlds and Euros, but duplicate the other competitions (various trophies, Grand Prix) as qualifiers for Worlds and Euros.

Zuranthium · May 17, 2007

Mafke said:
I'm all for giving skaters from small countries more shots at places at grand prix events and restricting worlds to the best regardless of country.

Yes, exactly. We should be seeing DOUBLE the amount of skaters at every Grand Prix event - 24 (with the top 12 for the season going to the Grand Prix Final).

To qualify for Worlds, every skater's best overall score at an International Event for that season should be looked at and the top 36 skaters should go to Worlds. A skater who does not qualify by this criteria but placed in the top 5 at Worlds or Olympics in the past 3 years will also be elligible for the current Worlds (taking the place of the lowest ranked skater of the 36 elligible from current rankings).

~Z

Mathman · May 17, 2007

gio said:
ISU must give equal opportunity for all countries.

That's the dilemma in a nutshell. Must the ISU give equal opportunity to all countries or must it give equal opportunity to all skaters?

Zuranthium · May 17, 2007

Mathman said:
That's the dilemma in a nutshell. Must the ISU give equal opportunity to all countries or must it give equal opportunity to all skaters?

If the Grand Prix events were alloted 24 skaters, then EVERY country could be garunteed to have at least one Grand Prix assignment a year. The key to the entire problem is with the Grand Prix. If it was changed in the way I suggest, lower ranked skaters would be getting more international experience AND the field at Worlds would become the strongest possible.

~Z

Mathman · May 17, 2007

I think the expense of doubling the field at the GP events would be a big problem for the ISU.

Zuranthium · May 17, 2007

Have the skaters pay for their own meals. I wouldn't mind in the slightest, considering it's an opportunity to compete that I wouldn't have had in the first place before the rule change.

~Z

antmanb · May 18, 2007

Zuranthium said:
With the amazing amount of talent that certain countries are seeing, I think it's definitely time to abolish the silly "maximum of 3 skaters per country" rule. 5 Japanese ladies won medals on the Grand Prix circuit this past season and there's no reason why all 5 of them shouldn't have been able to go to Worlds.

IMO, the ISU needs to come up with a certain point total that qualifies a skater. If any skater hits that amount during any international competition during the season, they earn a place to compete at Worlds or Olympics

~Z

Then the GP system would have to change radically to not be by invitation only or based ont he previous year's worlds otherwise new skaters would never even break into the international competitions.

Ant

Joesitz (RIP) · May 18, 2007

z - you're absolutley right. The best skaters should compete against the best skaters. So many of Americans, Japanese, and Russians do not get to the Worlds and they are a far cry better than some of the one's I have to sit through.

That Austrian competition that gets skaters on to the GPs should also be used for Worlds. Just a suggestion

Joe

hockeyfan228 · May 18, 2007

I think you mean Karl-Schaefer that was used to qualify the final spots for the Olympics. Although countries that qualified at least one skater for the Olympics were allowed to compete, their results didn't earn an additional spot for their country. Only those nations without any spots earned a spot through Karl Schaeffer.

In this model, Suguri wouldn't have made the World team since Japan already had three spots. This model is set up to limit the number of skaters who compete in the Olympics, which, for singles, is 30 competitors (24 earned from previous Worlds and six from KS. Although for one discipline -- I think dance -- 25 spots were guaranteed, and five were earned at KS.)

Joesitz (RIP) · May 18, 2007

hockeyfan228 said:
I think you mean Karl-Schaefer that was used to qualify the final spots for the Olympics. Although countries that qualified at least one skater for the Olympics were allowed to compete, their results didn't earn an additional spot for their country. Only those nations without any spots earned a spot through Karl Schaeffer.

In this model, Suguri wouldn't have made the World team since Japan already had three spots. This model is set up to limit the number of skaters who compete in the Olympics, which, for singles, is 30 competitors (24 earned from previous Worlds and six from KS. Although for one discipline -- I think dance -- 25 spots were guaranteed, and five were earned at KS.)

You are correct. I only mentioned it because I thought it was a system of allowing additional skaters on to a major competition. I did not want the identical system but a new one that would get additional skaters from countries with more than 3 skaters who are obviously better than others who will be automatically in the major competition - not for talent- but for nationality

The limit of 3 per nation should be changed, imo. Will it happen? Of course not!

Joe

Zuranthium · May 18, 2007

antmanb said:
Then the GP system would have to change radically to not be by invitation only or based ont he previous year's worlds otherwise new skaters would never even break into the international competitions.

Ant

Untrue. Look at how many skaters get to compete at Worlds - this year 45 ladies went. Many of them only got to skate 1 of their programs.

24 skaters per Grand Prix event with 6 events = 72 skaters per year would get to skate at TWO international competitions and skate BOTH of their programs each time. Although, not everyone would be skating at 2 events. What you'd really see is something like 40 skaters getting two Grand Prix assignments per year and 64 skaters getting 1 assignment...that's 104 people who are getting international competition experience - WAYYYYYYYY more than the current system!

Each country would be allotted a certain number of placements for the Grand Prix based upon how well that country did in International events the previous year. With 144 slots available, you can garuntee that every country gets to send at least 1 skater to a Grand Prix event every year. Maximum placements for a country would be 18 (sending 3 skaters to every single Grand Prix event). Skaters qualify themselves for 0, 1, or 2 assignments based upon how well they did in the previous year and then the Countries themselves decide further placements that are open....ie, if Japan has 18 placements for the ladies and 4 of their ladies automatically qualified for 2 assignments and 4 ladies automatically qualified for 1 assignment, they have 6 spots left to do whatever they want with. They can give a second event to a lady who only qualified for 1 assignment or they can send a lady who did not qualify at all to 1 or 2 events.

I believe this system would be a huge benefit to just about everyone.

~Z

antmanb · May 18, 2007

Zuranthium said:
Untrue. Look at how many skaters get to compete at Worlds - this year 45 ladies went. Many of them only got to skate 1 of their programs.

24 skaters per Grand Prix event with 6 events = 72 skaters per year would get to skate at TWO international competitions and skate BOTH of their programs each time. Although, not everyone would be skating at 2 events. What you'd really see is something like 40 skaters getting two Grand Prix assignments per year and 64 skaters getting 1 assignment...that's 104 people who are getting international competition experience - WAYYYYYYYY more than the current system!

Each country would be allotted a certain number of placements for the Grand Prix based upon how well that country did in the previous year's Grand Prix. With 144 slots available, you can garuntee that every country gets to send at least 1 skater to a Grand Prix event every year. Maximum placements for a country would be 18 (sending 3 skaters to every single Grand Prix event). The number of placements a country has would be based upon how well they did the previous year in the Grand Prix. Skaters qualify themselves for 0, 1, or 2 assignments based upon how well they did in the previous year and then the Countries themselves decide further placements that are open....ie, if Japan has 18 placements for the ladies and 4 of their ladies automatically qualified for 2 assignments and 4 ladies automatically qualified for 1 assignment, they have 6 spots left to do whatever they want with. They can give a second event to a lady who only qualified for 1 assignment or they can send a lady who did not qualify at all to 1 or 2 events.

I believe this system would be a huge benefit to just about everyone.

~Z

IN other words making the grand prix and selection radically different!!

Ant

Zuranthium · May 18, 2007

antmanb said:
IN other words making the grand prix and selection radically different!!

Radically better. Don't fear change.

~Z

gio · May 18, 2007

Than why care for nationality. Why Japanese, Americans or Russians don't skate for other countries. In this way they could go to Worlds with no problems.For example Fumie Suguri could be skating for Thailand and Alissa Czisny for Hungary. If they want to compete they can switch nationality. Monaco will be very happy to have for example Veronica Cannarozzo.

Zuranthium · May 18, 2007

You make no sense?

Someone has to have been a member of a nation for a year to skate for them. It's also not easy to just get up and switch your nationality, nor do many people WANT to. There's also no point in switching, really. Doesn't matter if you can't get into the top 36.

~Z

A need for new rules to qualify skaters for Worlds

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