Skating as an acrobatic/contorionist event

passion · May 17, 2007

With the increasing numbers of younger skaters doing more flexible moves skating is evolving as it always has. However, do you think skating will be enhanced by becoming more acrobatic/contorionistic in nature, or do you think it will have a negative impact on classic skating consisting of elegance and deep edges with more emphasis on skating?

My second question is: from a safety issue, do you think there should be a limit on giving value or credit to certain moves that obviously places a skater at high risk for injury later in life or even possibly earlier? For instance, extreme back extension where the back is completely folded in half with very little space between the two halves of the back.

Mafke · May 17, 2007

passion said:
do you think skating will be enhanced by becoming more acrobatic/contorionistic in nature...?

My second question is: from a safety issue, do you think there should be a limit on giving value or credit to certain moves that obviously places a skater at high risk for injury later in life or even possibly earlier?

No, extreme flexibility does not enhance skating in and of itself. As for limiting risky moves, let's ban all quads (please, I mean it, they're ugly and suck the life right out of programs whether or not the skater hits them).

gio · May 17, 2007

passion said:
With the increasing numbers of younger skaters doing more flexible moves skating is evolving as it always has. However, do you think skating will be enhanced by becoming more acrobatic/contorionistic in nature, or do you think it will have a negative impact on classic skating consisting of elegance and deep edges with more emphasis on skating?

It has a negative impact IMO. Too much emphasis on contorsionism. I don't want to see FS becoming a contorsionism competition on ice. But COP rewards that, unfortunately.
Once FS evolved because of the skaters innovations, now it evolves because COP dictates strict rules. FS will evolve the way COP changes. If the Biellmann spin gives high points all skaters will do the Biellmann, and so on and so forth...
COP blocked the natural evolution of the sport, IMO.

Mathman · May 17, 2007

I do think that the handwriting is on the wall as far as the future of the sport is concerned. The idea of using a well-controled edge to trace fiugres on the ice surface disappeared 20 years ago. The idea of looking pretty as a princess -- neither young people nor sports fans are interested in that any more.

So -- yes, I think ice skating will go in the direction of more and more revolutions in jumps (they will start speaking of a "1080" instead of a triple), and more contortionist and extreme positions in spins and moves in the field.

Adapt or die.

Vodka Shot · May 17, 2007

I'm not really sure what the difference is between these elements and quads quads quads. Both are dangerous and both are becoming more and more necessary to win. If they limit these elements than they ought to the quad as well, which imo is ruining mens skating.

SeaniBu · May 17, 2007

gio said:
COP blocked the natural evolution of the sport, IMO.

I don't see what you mean here. ???? How did it block? I can see changed or created a evolution, where as it seemed to be devolving (taking elements away, disbanding Figures, etc..) and now it is forcing it into a direction to become more associated with other sports. This element is worth this. EOS so people aren't thinking it is just the judge liking one better than another. It still seems like "evolution" to me.

Mathman said:
I do think that the handwriting is on the wall as far as the future of the sport is concerned. The idea of using a well-controled edge to trace fiugres on the ice surface disappeared 20 years ago. The idea of looking pretty as a princess -- neither young people nor sports fans are interested in that any more.

So -- yes, I think ice skating will go in the direction of more and more revolutions in jumps (they will start speaking of a "1080" instead of a triple), and more contortionist and extreme positions in spins and moves in the field.

Adapt or die.

That is reality. The whole world putting importance on "pretty" is likely an issue that has caused many problems in the past. If it she pretty good, but it shouldn't matter to the score of a sport. I accept it and like FS prior and now, but I will also like it in the future too. The one thing that would make me like it the most is if there are more fans. That is my biggest hope.

gio · May 17, 2007

SeaniBu said:
I don't see what you mean here. ???? How did it block? I can see changed or created a evolution, where as it seemed to be devolving (taking elements away, disbanding Figures, etc..) and now it is forcing it into a direction to become more associated with other sports. This element is worth this. EOS so people aren't thinking it is just the judge liking one better than another. It still seems like "evolution" to me.

I say it blocked the natural evolution, not the evolution alone. Now FS evolves, if COP changes. Before, it were the skaters that changed the sport. Now it is all predeterminated. The skaters can't innovate FS, because they have to do what COP dictates. What I want to say is that COP controls FS evolution.
JMO

carolinefan177 · May 17, 2007

I certainly hope not...

As much as I enjoy seeing originality in the sport, I hope future skaters do not push themselves pass the "breaking point." I miss the classic layback bielmann spin-free spins and footwork without all of the movement, edgework, etc.
<3

SeaniBu · May 17, 2007

gio said:
I say it blocked the natural evolution, not the evolution alone. Now FS evolves, if COP changes. Before, it were the skaters that changed the sport. Now it is all predeterminated.
JMO

I see your point better now, but do wonder what one's subjectivity to "natural" would be? I would say the evolution of FS is natural in the direction it has gone due to issues and feedback and changed because of it, as naturally it would. I understand. But that is why I didn't understand the comment. I can see people saying they wish it would have evolved differently, but it is the course of it's own nature so I was unclear on your comment. Sorry.

carolinefan177 · May 17, 2007

opps.

I think I meant to write, "I miss the classic bielmann-free layback spins"

gio · May 17, 2007

SeaniBu said:
That is reality. The whole world putting importance on "pretty" is likely an issue that has caused many problems in the past. If it she pretty good, but it shouldn't matter to the score of a sport. I accept it and like FS prior and now, but I will also like it in the future too. The one thing that would make me like it the most is if there are more fans. That is my biggest hope.

But it hasn't changed at all! If a skater is pretty it is still an advantage. Is Mao ugly??? Is Yu Na ugly??? Is Kimmie ugly?? Are Caro, Miki, Alissa, Megan, Kiira, Susanna, Sarah ugly?? Are they sloppy??
They are all like models. The way they prepare their faces and dresses.

The "only" one that isn't really pretty and is sloppy was heavily criticized in all FS forums and she doesn't have the favors of the judges at all. You all know who I'm talking about.

Right or wrong, but beauty in FS still counts!!

gio · May 17, 2007

SeaniBu said:
so I was unclear on your comment. Sorry.

No problem SeaniBu!

morninglight · May 17, 2007

passion said:
With the increasing numbers of younger skaters doing more flexible moves skating is evolving as it always has. However, do you think skating will be enhanced by becoming more acrobatic/contorionistic in nature, or do you think it will have a negative impact on classic skating consisting of elegance and deep edges with more emphasis on skating?

My second question is: from a safety issue, do you think there should be a limit on giving value or credit to certain moves that obviously places a skater at high risk for injury later in life or even possibly earlier? For instance, extreme back extension where the back is completely folded in half with very little space between the two halves of the back.

I personally like "classical skating consisting of elegance and deep edges with emphasis on skating" because I believe it always important to value the basics. I believe that a lot of FS fans, coaches, and judges pay greatest respect towards skaters who have such qualities (if she/he has the other required elements such as jumps and spins). But if the skater doesn't have those qualities but has only jumps, she/he would be severely criticized even when she/he wins the game. Especially, for a long-term career as a pro skater, these basic qualities appear to be more important than having difficult jumps which can be lost in years.

In terms of risks for injuries, the 'extreme' moves are not really dangerous for skaters who have the greatest flexibility. If they can do it, I think it fine that they are acknowledged. Yes, this may bring less flexible skaters into a disadvantageous position and I do understand your concerns. But what I think good about figure skating is that it is kind of 'multi-dimensional.' Each skater has strengths in some areas, and weaknesses in other areas. So if they cannot do it, they can still do what they can do

Mathman · May 17, 2007

gio said:
Right or wrong, but beauty in FS still counts!!

I do, however, think we are getting more broad minded in our standards of beauty. The list you gave of "pretty" skaters -- they're all different, all pretty in different ways. I think this is progress.

satorare · May 17, 2007

"classic bielmann-free layback spins"
"classical skating consisting of elegance and deep edges"

Why don't you just say "I like Kwan."

I strongly believe difficulty should be rewarded accordingly.
Difficulty can be judged objectiely, but "elegance" is not.
Kwan can't win under the new system, because CoP is more objective and "fair".

Mathman · May 17, 2007

satorare said:
Difficulty can be judged objectiely, but "elegance" is not.

But I think what makes figure skating stand out from other sports is the contrast -- even the dissonance -- between the two.

All sports are difficult. Why do we need figure skating at all? If we want to see someone jump high we can watch pole vaulting.

Mao Asada won the free skate at Worlds because she scored 69.64 points on the tech side...AND outscored everyone else in the second mark, too. That's figure skating! :rock:

satorare · May 17, 2007

Of course, Kwan has no chance against Mao (or even Meissner) under the CoP.

However under the 6.0 system, if Kwan skates cleanly the judges easily gave her 5.9s for the technical mark, and even 6.0 for presentation.
"Kwan's clean 3T-3T" was more "valuable" than "Slutskaya's two footed 3Lz-3Lo".
Needless to say, a less prominent skater's 3T-3T is not so "valuable" as Kwan's.

The CoP will give a higher mark for "two footed 3Lz-3Lo" than "clean 3T-3T", and the value of "3T-3T" is same for every skater.

Zuranthium · May 17, 2007

satorare said:
Of course, Kwan has no chance against Mao (or even Meissner) under the CoP.

However under the 6.0 system, if Kwan skates cleanly the judges easily gave her 5.9s for the technical mark, and even 6.0 for presentation.
"Kwan's clean 3T-3T" was more "valuable" than "Slutskaya's two footed 3Lz-3Lo".
Needless to say, a less prominent skater's 3T-3T is not so "valuable" as Kwan's.

The CoP will give a higher mark for "two footed 3Lz-3Lo" than "clean 3T-3T", and the value of "3T-3T" is same for every skater.

Nothing you say here is true.

#1 - Kwan at her peak could certainly beat Mao under CoP if Mao made mistakes. That was one of Kwan's powers - consistency when others messed up.

#2 - At both the 2000 and 2001 Worlds, Kwan did perfect programs with a Triple-Triple and 7 Triples overall and didn't receive ANY marks higher than 5.8 for technical merit. Irina Slutskaya with a faulty 3Lutz/3Loop at 2001 Worlds was still ranked higher than Kwan on technical merit by some judges but lost because of her inferior presentation.

#3 - Actually, under CoP, the value of equal elements still aren't equal at all. Biased judges can give a skater whom they love better GOE marks on elements that another skater whom they don't like as much performed equally well. However, with CoP you see EXACTLY how a judge marked someone and can therefore call them out on something much more easily than you could when there were only 2 scores the judge used to grade a skater's entire performance.

~Z

carolinefan177 · May 17, 2007

thank you!

I do like Kwan.

I am sure that she would have adjusted to the new system had she been forced to compete under it in her prime. In 2005, she was struggling with a hip injury, and she still managed to improve the quality of her spins and the height in her jumps. Also, she is capable of landing more difficult triple-triples like the sal-loop; however, why would she need to when competing in competitions that didn't require her to skate fiercely but cleanly? All I'm saying is that I miss quality spins. Sometimes a skater is so busy adding a change of foot or switching edges that they can't manage a solid position (Miki Ando 2007 Worlds sit spin).
In regard to footwork, it can be powerful but it shouldn't be overbearing. Ando got the highest level for hers, and personally, I don't think it was as attractive as Mao's or Carolina's.

Just expressing opinion.
<3

Mathman · May 17, 2007

satorare said:
...the value of "3T-3T" is same for every skater.

Well, yes and no. Mao Asada (the new Michelle Kwan

) got 5.20 for a double Axel at Worlds, while Miki Ando got 3.77 for the same element.

Skating as an acrobatic/contorionist event

passion

Mafke

gio

Mathman

Vodka Shot

SeaniBu

gio

carolinefan177

SeaniBu

carolinefan177

gio

gio

morninglight

Mathman

satorare

Match Penalty

Mathman

satorare

Match Penalty

Zuranthium

Match Penalty

carolinefan177

Mathman

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