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Thread: The Levels of Individual Elements

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    The Levels of Individual Elements

    Some elements in figure skating and skate dance are judged more difficult than others and are awarded special levels. Certain spins, certain lifts, certain twizzles, etc. But not Jumps. Not even a failed attempt at a lutz.

    1st Question: Why not Jumps?

    2nd Question: Who decides the Levels?

    3rd Question: What is the point of the GoEs in these cases?

    (Just some serious summer talk.)

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    1st Question: Why not Jumps?
    Jumps are already subdivided for difficulty by takeoff and number of rotations.

    2nd Question: Who decides the Levels?
    Do you mean who decides what level each element performed in a competition qualifies for? The technical panel for that competition, consisting of the Technical Controller, the Technical Specialist, and the Assistant Technical Specialist. This is clearly spelled out in the judging system documentation.

    Or do you mean who decides what the features are in general, as published in the various ISU communications, that the skaters/coaches refer to when planning their elements and the technical panel refers to when identifying them? There's an ISU committee that designs those rules, but I don't know exactly who they are or how they are chosen.

    Maybe grossano can point us in the right direction?

    3rd Question: What is the point of the GoEs in these cases?
    In general, the level of an element measures how difficult it is, and the GOE measures how well it was performed.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    In the case of spins and spirials, my understanding is that the level is determined not by how difficult the element is but by how many different changes of position, changes of edges, etc., you can work into a single combination spin or spiral sequence.

    Conceivably you could get a +2 GOE for a perfectly done layback spin, but it would still be a level one. To get a higher level you would have to start out in classic layback position, then go up to a Biellmann, then lean to the side and switch over to the other foot, etc.

    One of the changes in the rules for pairs this year raised the value of a triple twist, compared to a double twist. Some skaters (Castile and Okolski, for instance) were complaining that a level four double twist received as many points as a level one triple twist, which wasn't right considering how much more difficult the triple twist is.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    PS. Just for comparison, a level 1 layback spin with +2 GOE is worth 2.2 points. A level 3 layback with 0 GOE is worth 2.4 points.

    When Michelle Kwan first started working on a CoP-friendly program in 2004, she said that she hoped to gain enough in GOEs to make up for having lower levels on her spin elements. It didn't work out that way. Positive GOEs on simpler elements are hard to come by, and the ladies that were raising the levels by incorporating a lot of convoluted positions were also doing OK in the GOE department.

    After 2004 Worlds, Michelle saw the lay of the land and started practicing higher level spin combinations in more stressful positions. She ended up hurting her back and had to withdraw from all of her fall events.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    1st Question: Why not Jumps?
    Interesting point. I think that jumps are treated differently than spins and step sequences.

    A triple Lutz always gets 6.0 points, and if you embellish it with a "difficult position" (arm over the head) or a "difficult entry" (hydroplane), this does not raise the "level" as it would in the case of a spin. Rather it is reflected only in the GOE (and possibly in the PCS).

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    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Interesting point. I think that jumps are treated differently than spins and step sequences.

    A triple Lutz always gets 6.0 points, and if you embellish it with a "difficult position" (arm over the head) or a "difficult entry" (hydroplane), this does not raise the "level" as it would in the case of a spin. Rather it is reflected only in the GOE (and possibly in the PCS).
    Such a good point.


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    Nor does the difficulty of the steps into the entrance affect the base value, which is what levelling does.

    One of the most beautiful set of steps I have ever seen was Miki Ando's one-footed footwork directly into her 3F in her Dortmund SP. Under CoP, she would have received the same base value as a skater who performed two-footed steps into a 3F. It appears to me from looking at various GOE's that the deduction for pausing between the steps and the jumps isn't reflected in the GOE's often enough, although I don't have statistically valid sample.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hockeyfan228 View Post
    Nor does the difficulty of the steps into the entrance affect the base value, which is what levelling does.

    One of the most beautiful set of steps I have ever seen was Miki Ando's one-footed footwork directly into her 3F in her Dortmund SP. Under CoP, she would have received the same base value as a skater who performed two-footed steps into a 3F.
    What you're talking about falls under the "Transitions/Linking Footwork" Program Component element.

    ~Z

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Conceivably you could get a +2 GOE for a perfectly done layback spin, but it would still be a level one. To get a higher level you would have to start out in classic layback position, then go up to a Biellmann, then lean to the side and switch over to the other foot, etc.
    Has the CoP recognized the 'classic' layback spin? For many years I was under the impression that the official definition was 'bend at the waist'.

    All three of the Asian ladies do not do a classic layback. they keep the free leg close to their skating leg which, I don't care for, but I believe was ok by definition and for base value.

    busy, busy, combo, isn't it?

    Joe

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Oh, btw. Thanks for those many replies.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    All three of the Asian ladies do not do a classic layback. they keep the free leg close to their skating leg which, I don't care for, but I believe was ok by definition and for base value.
    Joe

    yeah. I think tha we americans have the best laybacks by far....if you look at the little girls at the novice level... intermetade... juvinille... beautiful laybacks as far as the eye can see. i hope that they keep them up.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Has the CoP recognized the 'classic' layback spin? For many years I was under the impression that the official definition was 'bend at the waist'.
    I think that's right. Officially, it's a layback if you lay back. Maybe you get some extra GOEs for a pretty position. Here are two Sasha's, for instance, one with leg up ("attitude") and the other down. I think they are both OK, as far as the ISU rules are concerned.

    http://www.sashacohen.com/photos/lalique2.gif

    http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-d...8450-2005Jan14

    But what I really think the ISU wants is this:

    http://www.usfigureskating.org/conte...ng-layback.jpg

    In fact, the only two rules that are specific to the layback spin (as far as what you have to do to get a higher level) are:

    1. Change of position, backwards, sideways or reverse.

    2. Biellmann position after layback spin.

    (I'm not sure what they mean by a backwards, sideways or reverse layback, but if you can do it, you get more points than Sasha's version.)

  13. #13
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Backwards = laying straight back
    Sideways = body is 90 degrees out to the side

    Going from backwards to sideways in your spin is a layback feature
    Reversing that and going from sideways to backwards is a layback feature (hence the comment backwards-sideways or reverse)

    The new communication also includes for the solo spin in a program for 8 revolutions in the first position before making any core change/feature change but this is for ALL solo spins.

  14. #14
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ Thanks for that clarification. Is this a sideways layback?

    http://www.usoc.org/Alissa-Czisny-actionlead.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    The new communication also includes for the solo spin in a program for 8 revolutions in the first position before making any core change/feature change but this is for ALL solo spins.
    It sounds like a step in the right direction, and I think it's great 8 unbroken revolutions are recognized as a feature. No one can guarantee though that in reality it won't turn into something ugly, since it needs to be combined with a number of other features in order to receive a higher level.

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