The Pearl spin invented by a Korean?

feraina · May 29, 2007

I just saw a clip of this S. Korean skater (Ji Eun Choi) on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H7SKJq5le4

Never heard of her before, until I saw a comment under one of Caroline Zhang's youtube videos that Ji Eun Choi has been doing "the pearl spin for a long time." Indeed, Ji Eun Choi does the pearl spin here (and in other videos) and even morphs it into a Bielmann. Can't find anything earlier than 2006 4CC on her, nor any video on Caroline before summer 2006, and so can't verify the claim that JEC has been doing the "pearl" longer than Caroline, but it's conceivable if only because Caroline is so young and hasn't been skating that long! Can it be that Caroline and the rest of us have overlooked this amazing Korean spinner because of her consistently low placings (beautiful spins & presentation but poor jumps)??

kandidy · May 30, 2007

I thought it was called "oyster spin".

Kypma · May 30, 2007

No, it's the pearl. I believe Peggy Fleming got it wrong the first time, and the error stuck. Caroline herself prefers the Pearl.

Sandra_persch · May 30, 2007

Kypma said:
No, it's the pearl. I believe Peggy Fleming got it wrong the first time, and the error stuck. Caroline herself prefers the Pearl.

I read somewhere that Caroline's mum had it/wanted it copyrightes under the name auster spin

antmanb · May 30, 2007

Sandra_persch said:
I read somewhere that Caroline's mum had it/wanted it copyrightes under the name auster spin

Is copyright a registrable IP right ni the US?

Ant

Mathman · May 30, 2007

Is there any figure skating position that is truly new? I bet some kid strapped deer antlers to his boots a thousand years ago and did an oyster.

manleywoman · May 30, 2007

Even the Beillman Spin was not invented by Denise Beillman. She's merely the one who popularized it. Same with Zhang.

Tinymavy15 · May 30, 2007

yeah... it was called the oyster until Peggy for some wierd reason called it the pearl and i guess the name stuck! I liked the oyster better. Becasue that's what it looked like.

SeaniBu · May 30, 2007

Tinymavy15 said:
yeah... it was called the oyster until Peggy for some wierd reason called it the pearl and i guess the name stuck! I liked the oyster better. Becasue that's what it looked like.

I think that from what I recollect - and can check videos later - the "oyster" was around already and a "few" skaters (thinking / recollecting that Chio was mentioned as the "Korean skater" who was doing the oyster but not named her by sir name), and when CZ started this she put her head back further - "in middle of the "oyster" - and renamed / or newly named it due to the slight variation - the "peal" because of where her head is during. Peggy WAS calling it the Oyster and was corrected / questioned by Terry (remarking they would speak to her later and ask). Later in booth while interviewing Mirai and Caroline, Terry or Kurt asked and she clarified SHE (Caroline) calls it the pearl. :yes:

They were also commenting during there discussion it was not a "totally new but a variation" and I believe used the Bielmann as an example of how they get these names associated with "elements."

doubleaxel · May 30, 2007

manleywoman said:
Even the Beillman Spin was not invented by Denise Beillman. She's merely the one who popularized it. Same with Zhang.

That's true, there's actually a clip on Youtube about a Russian skater that was the first to do a Biellmann (in the 1970s or so, I think). Denise's is better though, haha.

gkelly · May 30, 2007

doubleaxel said:
That's true, there's actually a clip on Youtube about a Russian skater that was the first to do a Biellmann (in the 1970s or so, I think). Denise's is better though, haha.

That's not just any Russian skater, it's Tamara Moskvina.

And it was the 1960s.

Tinymavy15 · May 30, 2007

gkelly said:
That's not just any Russian skater, it's Tamara Moskvina.

And it was the 1960s.

wow. i never thought of that tint old lady doing a belliman.... it was actually very pretty. I like that way she grabs her toe instead if her heel the way m ost skaters do! :rofl:

thanks for the post!

Mathman · May 30, 2007

gkelly said:
That's not just any Russian skater, it's Tamara Moskvina.

Tinymavy15 said:
wow. i never thought of that tiny old lady doing a belliman....

Can you believe, even Dick Button used to skate!

feraina · May 30, 2007

SeaniBu said:
I think that from what I recollect - and can check videos later - the "oyster" was around already and a "few" skaters (thinking / recollecting that Chio was mentioned as the "Korean skater" who was doing the oyster but not named her by sir name), and when CZ started this she put her head back further - "in middle of the "oyster" - and renamed / or newly named it due to the slight variation - the "peal" because of where her head is during. Peggy WAS calling it the Oyster and was corrected / questioned by Terry (remarking they would speak to her later and ask). Later in booth while interviewing Mirai and Caroline, Terry or Kurt asked and she clarified SHE (Caroline) calls it the pearl. :yes:

They were also commenting during there discussion it was not a "totally new but a variation" and I believe used the Bielmann as an example of how they get these names associated with "elements."

Can you give any references/links as to the existence of "oyster" as a recognized spin prior to Caroline? Or did you mean that people were doing it, but it didn't have a name, "oyster" or otherwise? Anyway, I can't find anything via google. I just rewatched the ESPN clip of Caroline's nationals LP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6UVivxT1mg

Peggy says at the end "And now here's a position that she invented and calls the 'Oyster' in this layback spin..." I do remember their discussion in the interview booth later where Caroline said no, I don't like oysters, I call it the "pearl." But I don't remember anything about this being a variation and not totally new.

visaliakid · May 30, 2007

During the portion of the Pairs and IceDance coverage on ESPN, after showing both Caroline and Mirai's Junior Champion free skates, the two were on set with both Terry Gannon and Kurt Browning. Browning mentioned that Flemming incorrectly called the spin, the Oyster. He then asked was that correct? Caroline laughed saying Oysters were disgusting... and that no, the name of the move was "The Pearl."

SeaniBu · May 31, 2007

feraina said:
Can you give any references/links as to the existence of "oyster" as a recognized spin prior to Caroline? Or did you mean that people were doing it, but it didn't have a name, "oyster" or otherwise?

Acatuly I was basicly just trying to say the same thing that visaliakid said above much better than I did. The only reference I could give are things mentioned in coverage or that of comments on the forum. Granted the comments in coverage were from the afore mentioned commentators and Caroline, so potentially reputable.

feraina said:
Peggy says at the end "And now here's a position that she invented and calls the 'Oyster' in this layback spin..." I do remember their discussion in the interview booth later where Caroline said no, I don't like oysters, I call it the "pearl." But I don't remember anything about this being a variation and not totally new.

That might be more of my own feeling, about her head position constituting a "reason for the pearl variation constitution," - speculation made from comments that the head positing is a different "position name capability." I keep forgetting that I have to do without voice and facial expression to be able to convey that sense of what it is I am saying. Thanks!

antmanb · May 31, 2007

feraina said:
Can you give any references/links as to the existence of "oyster" as a recognized spin prior to Caroline? Or did you mean that people were doing it, but it didn't have a name, "oyster" or otherwise? Anyway, I can't find anything via google. I just rewatched the ESPN clip of Caroline's nationals LP:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6UVivxT1mg

Peggy says at the end "And now here's a position that she invented and calls the 'Oyster' in this layback spin..." I do remember their discussion in the interview booth later where Caroline said no, I don't like oysters, I call it the "pearl." But I don't remember anything about this being a variation and not totally new.

But then skaters can sometimes "name" and "re-invent" these things...like the Mike Pike :laugh:

or a shoot the duck if you're anyone else in the world!!!

(Or a teapot if you are anyone else int he UK!)

Ant

MKFSfan · May 31, 2007

Same deal all those SashaTM moves. Like the "SashaSpiral" which is the Maribel Vison Owen spiral, aka as "fan spiral." Or the "SashaSpin", the either forward or side catch I-spin that has been done forever, maybe not everyone pulled their leg in as tight as Sasha does, but certainly was not newly invented by Sasha. Sasha includes both in all her programs, so she definitely is associated with such moves, made them even more popular, but she did not invent them.

I'll give her the "SashaSkid" move, since I don't think anyone did a slide type move transitioning from a fan to a Y-position. But then when Mao did the back Y-spiral, transition-change direction to forward Y spiral, no one ran with the "MaoSlide."

And maybe even give her the "SashaCurl", but that's really a varation of an attitude position (and didn't NNN do it 1st?)

heyang · May 31, 2007

I think Caroline achieves a more stretched out position on the horizontal part of the spin and also brings it up to a Bielman. I didn't find the this girl's version as appealing to watch after watching Zhang's.

As other people have mentioned, many people become known for moves that weren't neccessarily 1st performed by then. I'm sure Michelle wasn't the 1st to do such a deep change of edge on her spiral, but it did become a signature movement for her and others have repeated that skill. Denise was not the 1st to do the Bielman, but hers was just the most spectacular. Yada, yada.

SeaniBu · Jun 1, 2007

heyang said:
I think Caroline achieves a more stretched out position on the horizontal part of the spin and also brings it up to a Bielman.

Like an oyster raising up to open and reveal the "pearl" ~ of a face CZ has.

The Pearl spin invented by a Korean?

feraina

kandidy

Kypma

Sandra_persch

antmanb

Mathman

manleywoman

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

SeaniBu

doubleaxel

gkelly

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

Mathman

feraina

visaliakid

SeaniBu

antmanb

MKFSfan

heyang

SeaniBu

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