Ice dance judging: Any improvement?
I was just reading a Spotlight on Skating feature on 2007 Europeans by correspondent Klaus-Reinhold Kany. Kany writes:
“[Another disadvantage for third-place finishers Denkova and Staviski]: No Bulgarian judge had been drawn into the jury a couple of months ago; a fact they learned only in Warsaw.” And
“Silver medallists Domnina and Shabalin got strong support from the Russian lobby but also showed good performances overall.”
What struck me was that the article was not an editorial or opinion piece, just straightforward reporting of the facts. Is it really true – and apparently accepted by everyone in the sport as, “that’s the way it is” – that D&S had no chance to win unless a Bulgarian judge were there?
What would this absent Bulgarian judge have done to get D&S the gold? Call in some favors from the “Russian lobby?” If D&S had known beforehand that there would be no Bulgarian judge on the panel, how would that knowledge have helped them? Is the author saying that if they could have approached the Russian lobby in advance, instead of waiting until it was too late?
Has the 2010 Olympic ice dance podium already been decided? Domnina & Shabalin, gold; Virtue & Moir, silver; Davis & White, bronze?
Look at the composition of the Euros Ice Dance panel:
Rolf PIPOH GER
Irina KIREEVA AZE
Miroslav MISUREC CZE
Laurent CARRIERE FRA
Christopher BUCHANAN GBR
Walter ZUCCARO ITA
Yury BALKOV UKR
Roland MADER SUI
Csaba BALINT HUN
Malgorzata SOBKOW POL
Alla SHEKHOVTSEVA RUS
Katalin ALPERN ISR
The Euros "Russian lobby" consisted of 3 judges: Kireeva, Balkov and Shekhovtseva (who just happens to be the wife of RFSF head Piseev). Of course they had a strong influence on how the results turned out! It seems pretty clear to me that the Russian lobby had a deal with the French judge to boost DomShabs in return for backing DelShoes over DenSta.
There may have been other deals made in advance for Worlds, but the FD panel that was drawn was lacking in 'Russian lobby' power (AUS, BUL, CAN, CHN, CZE, GER, ISR, ITA, JPN, LTU, POL, USA) so DomShabs and DelShoes finished off the podium. Of course, there WAS a Bulgarian judge at Worlds---but no French judge.
Politics aside I find dance judging must improved under this new judging system. Placings can change among teams, throughout a season, from competition to competition now. Placings can change from one dance to another, within a competition. It seems judges actually "judge" each event now, and "judge" each dance. I am not saying it is perfect, or there isnt still some serious politics involved. However it is still much improved from what it was before this new judging system.
Remember how before judges would get together and form a block and block vote, coming up with majority votes for teams they pre-arranged to finish in a certain placement. While some type of pre-arranged group voting is still possible, it is still much harder to determine a way to automaticaly put teams in a certain place with an agreed upon group of judges by just giving them majority ordinals like before.
Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program
is there usually a bulgarian judge? Bulgaria isn't that important of ac ountry skating wise... is i can see why a judge would not be selcted from that country.
Two-time World Champions Denkova/Staviiski have certainly proven to be a highly successful ice dance team from Bulgaria. What ice dance team from Uzbekistan or Azerbaijan has medaled at Worlds?
Originally Posted by Tinymavy15
The most accomplished skater representing UZB was Russian-bornTatiana Malinina who won the 1998 GPF and the 1999 (first) 4CCm but never medalled at Worlds. Since then, there have been no skaters/teams from AZE or UZB anywhere near as successful as Malinina.
Yet there usually seems to be an AZE judge or a UZB judge, or both, on ice dance panels, in addition to the Russian judge.
I'm not sure how dance is judged, and listening to Suzy Wynn hasn't helped. I am assuming that the big tricks in Dance are the twizzles, the lift followed by the reverse turn, and the variation of shoot the duck. Otherwise one has to look for the closeness of the couple while dancing. (Is that all there is, then lets keep....}
However, when I watch these LIVE and there is no Wynne telling me something, I realize that I am watching the10 best teams in the World. All of the above elements have been duly executed by these top teams. I believe only taste comes into play from then on.
Who is the best of the lot? I find that out in the compulsory dance when they all have to do the same thing, and for a bit of innovation, I go to the Original Dance which tells me about rapport between the couple and if there is any personality in the dance. I think once the dance team is permitted to do a lasso lift in this Free Dance, we will have brought about a brilliant merger that will sweep the nation.
Of course, there is always this thing called PASSION which for some is the defining factor for first on the podium. I just wish I could find the real thing and not some early film expressionism.
I think that CoP judgings is just as biased and faulty as 6.0 judging was, as far as ice dance is concerned. I thought the results at this year's Worlds were just WRONG. The only placements I totally agreed with were gold and silver, D&S and D&L were definitely the class of the field. After that it was a joke. Its obvious that the judges have already decided who the 2010 Oly medalists will be. ANd I think it is all a load of crap. A big, steaming pile of crap.
I don't know if the judging has gotten any better but my big concern is that Belbin and Augusto have stopped improving and that USA's chances for any medal at the 2010 Olympics are practically nil.
and... World Peace!
Belbin and Agosto are not the be all and end all of US Ice Dance... if they stop improving that just gives another team a chance to continue to improve and match and beat the top team now... *shrugs* it's the natural cycle of things.
Davis and White are on the move (in the right direction, LOL.) I wouldn't be surprised to see both them and Virtue and Moir contending for the podium (behind the Russians) in 2010.
I don't think either of those teams should be contending for the podium in 2010. Doesn't mean that the judges won't put them there, though. Both of them are sooooooooooo overrated, I'd have had them both outside the top ten at Worlds this year. Not saying they don't have potential, but they are not that great. Those two teams are the reason I think CoP judging is just as faulty as 6.0 was. Sorry, but that's how I feel. No, actually, I'm not even sorry. Sorry if, by chance, I offended any of their fans, perhaps, but not sorry for thinking that both teams are overrated, overhyped, and overmarked.
Originally Posted by Mathman
Vancouver 2010, 247.23, Bronze
Virtue and Moir aren't bad. Not bad at all. If I cared enough for ice dance, they'd be my faves. But of course, they have to wait for their turn, and it can take a while.
They SHOULD be waiting, but unfortunately the judges have decided that V&M are their new favorites. I just don't get it. Where is the barfing smiley when you need it?
Originally Posted by Hsuhs
It's 2007. Of those top ten teams that are ahead of Virtue and Moir and Davis and White, which of them will be better in three years than they are now?
Denkova and Staviski? Dubreil and Lauzon? Belbin and Agosto? Delobel and Schoenfelder?
Who do you expect to overtake them? Khokhlova and Novitski? Kerr and Kerr? Pechalat and Bourzat? Cappelli and Lanotte? Zaretski and Zaretski?
Honestly, I don't EXPECT anyone to overtake them. The judges decisions are in, the new favorites have been chosen. BUt I think that K&N, P&B, K&K and G&P should all be ahead of both V&M and D&W. C&L and Z&Z I haven't seen enough of to say exactly where they should fall.
Originally Posted by Mathman