Ice dance judging: Any improvement?

layman · Jun 5, 2007

I have been shocked at this thread. Have you all been following Dance at all for the past two seasons?

Davis/White and Virtue/Moir placed in the top ten at their first senior Worlds because they are extremely good and earned the placing.

Likewise, Belbin & Agosto earned another medal at Worlds because they are just that good (even with mistakes they are so much better than many of the other teams).

It's no coincidence that all three teams are coached by Igor Shpilband. All three teams are extremely hard-working, as is their coach...that's why they have had so much success.

As hard work is a habit that's self-perpetuating, the three teams can only get better through the next Olympic cycle. That does not bode well for other dance teams looking to medal in Canada. North American teams could sweep the podium.

Additionally I think Gregory & Pethukov have an excellent chance of making the Olympic team and improving their placing from Torino. They too are hard working and have excellent coaching (witnessed by the team's dramatic improvement in a single season with the new coaches).

If Denkova & Staviski stick around, I also expect them to be battling for the top spot (they are also hard working and have the same excellent coaches as Gregory & Pethukov). The Russians could sneak in there too (I find them hard working as well). My opinion on the French is that they have the most to lose. The younger teams are overtaking them on technique and the French have never been strong with performance. It's going to be tough for any team to crack the top ten of any upcoming World Championships or Olympic Games, but the ones that work hardest (with the right guidance) have the best shot.

attyfan · Jun 5, 2007

In an interview with Pisseev that I read on another board, he blamed the tech specialist for D/S's placing below B/A, not the judges. Could that be a factor instead of biased judging?

Seriously, I think that one of the effects of the CoP is that the outcome of an event can be fixed without bothering the judges -- just get to the tech specialist and team or hack the computer -- and anyone who does so can be sure that the judges (especially the Russian one) will be getting all the blame.

discoduck · Jun 5, 2007

I honestly don't think that B and A deserved the bronze in Tokyo. Just my opinion but they had too many mistakes in the FD and I think they were gifted.

Ice dance judging will never change as long as Yuri Balkov is involved.

MissIzzy · Jun 5, 2007

It definetly makes sense that whatever rigging's going on is more likely to be done on the technical side of things, where you only need three people(specialist and two assistants) involved to promise results. Maybe we need a backup team of callers? Or for the technical people to give out those written explanations?

Fred Goss · Jun 5, 2007

review of this thread appears to show that poster's opinions about their has been
"improvement" in ice dance judging or not is pretty closely tied to whether
the team(s) they like moved up or down in the standings.

layman · Jun 5, 2007

Well it's clear the judging has improved.

As much as I like the Russians and think they have improved and as hard as they work, they just did not have the difficulty of some of the other teams (especially in the free-dance where the difficulty in their foot-work lagged behind Belbin & Agosto, Delobel & Schoenfelder, Denkova & Staviski, Davis & White and Virtue and Moir). Early last season, the Russians were overscorred but by Worlds their scores were far more in line with their skill-set.

Conversely, both Davis & White and Virtue and Moir were underscorred (based on their advanced skill-set) during the first part of the season (I do give the judges and technical specialists plus points though for recogizing the difficulty in Davis & White's free-dance and giving them all level fours) but by Worlds both teams were finally receiving the scores that they deserved (based on their skill-set).

So, I think the judges and technical specialists are improving (from competition to competition) and the scores are becoming more and more accurate over the the course of the season (factoring in the learning curve from the Grand Prix to the World Championships).

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 5, 2007

Fred Goss said:
review of this thread appears to show that poster's opinions about their has been
"improvement" in ice dance judging or not is pretty closely tied to whether
the team(s) they like moved up or down in the standings.

Agree :agree: Most fans tend to see their countrymen as the most improved and the most apt to win. Americans, however, will follow their ancestral heritage.

Yet among the grand total of fans there exists some fans who think more about the actual skating and not caring which couple is doing it.

Joe

Mathman · Jun 5, 2007

attyfan said:
In an interview with Pisseev that I read on another board, he blamed the tech specialist for D/S's placing below B/A, not the judges. Could that be a factor instead of biased judging?

Seriously, I think that one of the effects of the CoP is that the outcome of an event can be fixed without bothering the judges -- just get to the tech specialist and team or hack the computer -- and anyone who does so can be sure that the judges (especially the Russian one) will be getting all the blame.

Anything is possible, and any individual can turn out to be a cheater and a crook. (And also, of course, anyone can make a mistake.)

However, I think the tech specialist idea is a move in the right direction.

I can't think of any other sport that has corrupt judging deliberately built into the system. The purpose of a National Federation is to secure the highest possible placements for the athletes from that country. The National Federations appoint the judges. Duh!

A judge from Poland has no other agendum than to get Siudek and Siudek on the podium. Mm. Le Gougne's business in Salt Lake City was to get a gold medal for Anasinna and Peiserat -- anything less and she would have been disloyal not only to the French Federation but to the whole organizational structure of the ISU.

The problem isn't that Yuri Balkov is a scum-bag -- he's just doing the job he was hired to do.

When the Yankees play the Red Sox, they don't let the Yanks send one of their employees to be the plate umpire. They don't let Boston hand-pick the umpire on first base.

Instead, the umpires work for Major League Baseball. They have their own professional organization independent of the team owners to set standards of conduct.

The way figure skating is judged, it is practically guarenteed that the outcome of a contest will come down to who is cosy with whom -- the rules are written that way.

So -- eternal optimist that I am -- I hope that the idea of a panel of referees who do not work directly for the Federations whose athletes they are supposed to be judging -- I hope that is a promising sign for the future.

chuckm · Jun 5, 2007

Of course Piseev blamed the tech team:

Gilles VANDENBROEK FRA
Andrzej DOSTATNI POL
April SARGENT SILVERSTEIN USA

Both Dostatni and Silverstein are US citizens.

But I don't think for one minute that the tech team was responsible for the outcome at Worlds. The main reason why DomShabs didn't win a medal was that there was NO Russian, Azerbaijani, Armenian or Uzbek judge on the panel, a highly unusual state of affairs.

That's one reason why I wouldn't be so quick to elevate V/M or D/W to the podium next year. In 2007, they had the benefit of a judging panel without a "steering" bloc. That was a rarity that we are unlikely to see in the future.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 5, 2007

Anything is possible, and any individual can turn out to be a cheater and a crook. (And also, of course, anyone can make a mistake.)

And who suffers for the calls of the crooked Tech Asst when he's out to put someone down? and the mistake - can it be corrected?

The skater{s) work extremely hard for this type of judgement? I think it demands much more than a pooh pooh, too bad.

Why not flash the Calls on the Big Board as he calls them or is there fear that the audience might react?

Joe

Mathman · Jun 5, 2007

Good suggestions, Joe. But when donkeys fly, you don't ask how long they can stay up.

If the ISU has taken a little baby step in the right direction, at least it's a start.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 5, 2007

Mathman said:
Good suggestions, Joe. But when donkeys fly, you don't ask how long they can stay up.

If the ISU has taken a little baby step in the right direction, at least it's a start.

Our differences MM, will always be: I question - you agree.

Have they thought about other steps? If they keep this power in the Tech Panels where the Caller is infallible, it will always be the best place for cheating and, yes, showing stupidity with mistakes.

I think the direction they are going may work in 2030. By that time they should have gotten rid of the crooked judges and not just penalize them for a year or two.

Joe

Mathman · Jun 5, 2007

I'm with you, Joe. You take the lead, I'm right behind you! :agree:

chuckm · Jun 5, 2007

Joesitz said:
And who suffers for the calls of the crooked Tech Asst when he's out to put someone down? and the mistake - can it be corrected?

The skater{s) work extremely hard for this type of judgement? I think it demands much more than a pooh pooh, too bad.

Why not flash the Calls on the Big Board as he calls them or is there fear that the audience might react?

Joe

The top teams all had high levels of difficulty anyway. It is more the GOE and the PCS that differentiate one team from another, and that is the realm of the judges. From my study of the JGP data (where the judges were identified), the Russian/Uzbek/Aze/Ukr judges tend to rate the top Russian team highest in GOE and PCS even when they make obvious mistakes.

Mathman · Jun 5, 2007

Have Grushina and Goncharov retired? What about Chait and Sakhnovsky?

gkelly · Jun 5, 2007

Mathman said:
Have Grushina and Goncharov retired?

Yes.

What about Chait and Sakhnovsky?

He was injured so they weren't able to compete in 2006-07. I understand they're planning to come back for 07-08.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 6, 2007

chuckm said:
The top teams all had high levels of difficulty anyway. It is more the GOE and the PCS that differentiate one team from another, and that is the realm of the judges. From my study of the JGP data (where the judges were identified), the Russian/Uzbek/Aze/Ukr judges tend to rate the top Russian team highest in GOE and PCS even when they make obvious mistakes.

I agree that the GoEs and the PCS will differentiate between theTOP singles and couples. I have yet to see a protocol where all the judges agree on the GoEs, and much of the PCS is in the eyes of the beholder and moreso when certain judges and contestants are of the same ilk.

Joe

layman · Jun 6, 2007

chuckm said:
Of course Piseev blamed the tech team:

Gilles VANDENBROEK FRA
Andrzej DOSTATNI POL
April SARGENT SILVERSTEIN USA

Both Dostatni and Silverstein are US citizens.

But I don't think for one minute that the tech team was responsible for the outcome at Worlds. The main reason why DomShabs didn't win a medal was that there was NO Russian, Azerbaijani, Armenian or Uzbek judge on the panel, a highly unusual state of affairs.

That's one reason why I wouldn't be so quick to elevate V/M or D/W to the podium next year. In 2007, they had the benefit of a judging panel without a "steering" bloc. That was a rarity that we are unlikely to see in the future.

Your real politik is depressing considering that I naively believed that the results last season were based on the actual performances and talent of the athletes rather than the composition of the judging panel.

I am sure you are right, but it's just too depressing to think that talent and hard work are NOT what matter most in Ice Dance.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jun 6, 2007

layman said:
I am sure you are right, but it's just too depressing to think that talent and hard work are NOT what matter most in Ice Dance.

Hard work and talent do make for great dancing and I believe we have 10 top teams in the mix. It's solely up to the Tech Asst and the judges to make the winner and podium.

Joe

Ice dance judging: Any improvement?

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