Fascination with a quad

Considering what happened in the Olympics, I found it somewhat surprising that Miki was still going for a quad at the Worlds this year despite the seemingly low success rate (as far as it was reported), until Mr. Morosov made the decision not to try it at the last minute. It seemed that she really wanted to bring it back to her program.

Mao also said somewhere after the Worlds that she wants to restart practicing it.

But the general view of the people in FS forums seems that a quad is too risky for ladies in so many ways:
The biggest concern seems to be the risk of injuries. Others doubt if ladies can master a quad to the extent that they consistently land it in competitions. Some others also mentioned psychological pressures that a difficult jump brings about. I totally agree with each of them.

I wonder what makes these two ladies to be so motivated to do this jump.

1. Can't clean Miki without a quad have any hope for beating clean Mao without a quad?

2. Can't clean Mao with one or two triple axel(s) beat clean Miki with a quad?

Hmm, I agree with the reasons why it may not be a good idea for ladies to regularly attempt quads. There are biological/physical reasons why women in general can't jump as high or rotate as fast as men, and hence the higher risk of injury.

But I don't think either Miki's motivations for wanting a consistent quad, or Mao's for axels and/or quad, rest mainly on their immediate rivalries -- rather, I think each of them is more interested in challenging themselves and perhaps in making history in figure skating.

if i were in Miki's shoes i would have wanted to put in the quad as well. She wanted to prove that she could do one and perhaps get the little girls scared and making them put in thier triple axels and triple triples. Miki has landed the quad and i would love to see her do it again, as improbable as that is. Mao was going to try the triple axel no matter what... i hope that she can hang onto this jump and that we see at least one in her programs next year. I hope the puberty bug doesn't steal it away!

The answer is obvious.
Ando can't beat "clean Mao" even with a quad.

The base value of Ando's current jump layout is about 46.6 pt (including bonus). If she replace 3S to 4S, it's 51.6 pt.

Mao already has the base value of 51.5 pt with one 3A. She has advantages in PCS and GOE compared to Ando.

Anyway, if Ando has a usable quad, she can be on top of everyone except "clean Mao".

feraina said:

But I don't think either Miki's motivations for wanting a consistent quad, or Mao's for axels and/or quad, rest mainly on their immediate rivalries -- rather, I think each of them is more interested in challenging themselves and perhaps in making history in figure skating.

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Thank you for your insights.

Yeah, Miki had the "history making" attitude at least in the past. She said before the Olympics that she wouldn't mind not getting a medal, but that she wanted to try a quad at the Olympics. So despite the disastrous performance, she said that she made a lovely memory of trying a quad at the Olympics, that she enjoyed herself, and that she would like to aim at a gold medal at the next Olympics. (Perhaps her comments were a bit too naive and too honest to herself though; these comments were received by the general public as a bit beyond the common-sense understanding, which led to all the criticism later on. I recall even a former prime minister, Yoshiro Mori, criticizing her comments. Regrettably, it was really a big deal....). But despite all that, she has never said that she regrets trying it. I remember Ms. Midori Ito as one of the few skate-related people who supported Miki's quad attempt, which also makes sense considering her own triple axel at the Olympics.

Yet, I do not know if Miki still wants to just make a history. Since the Olympics, Miki has said that she wants to become a gold medalist at the 2010 Olympics. In order for Miki to achieve this goal, she may feel that she cannot beat clean Mao without a quad.

Mao also says that she wants to become a gold medalist at the Olympics.

But for Mao, who has a nearly consistent 3A and who hasn't mastered a quad, I am not sure how making a history helps her getting the OGM at all. Personally, I am hoping that she doesn't take any risk if it's unnecessary.

Yet, she does say that she wants to improve further and further every year. And a quad may be one of the most attractive ways for her to feel the sense of accomplishment. But I feel that she can improve in many other ways.....

the fascination of the Quad is watching Lambiel take off in a quad toe and turn 4 times in the air in perfect position and land with a soft bent knee with amazing flow on the skate.

I don't think Miki or any other female skater will achieve this. Some will get the quad but it will not be a beauty.

Joe

Joesitz said:

the fascination of the Quad is watching Lambiel take off in a quad toe and turn 4 times in the air in perfect position and land with a soft bent knee with amazing flow on the skate.

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Great point That's true :agree:

Have I mentioned lately how much I hate quads? No? Then let me get it out of the way first (ahem ....


I HATE QUADS!!!!!!!!


Anyhoo, quads are the new figures in some ways. The judges care about them but most fans can't tell the difference between a quad and a triple (except for maybe the long grim deathmarch approach that quads usually inspire). I hate how they suck all the life out of most programs if they fail and even if they're landed the skater is so relieved that sloppiness seems to ensue in the other elements.

And they are tough and I think we'll never see a full complement of quads. In competition almost twenty years after the first quad in competition only two different quads have been ratified in world or oly competition (despite recurrent hype about how skater x is working on some other quad or two or landing them in practice).
If you look at Plushenko's last oly programs (and compare them with what he was doing five years ago) almost every other aspect of his skating has been sacrificed to keep the quad (I'm sceptical of his success when he comes back what else can he ditch to keep the quad?)

And the injury rate associated with them is also scary (no further comment necessary)

I'd like to see Ando working on fixing her lip and extensions (not the same as flexibility which I don't care about).

I'd like to see Asada fix her flutz, toe loop and salchow before tryng any quads (and those should have priority over the 3ax too). Does she really want to be the inspiration of an Asada rule?*

*the reverse twin of the Zayak rule, which would penalize skaters for not having enough different jumps with the same number of rotations?

I thank morninglight-san for bringing up this topic.
Quad came along like a fated enigma (curse and hope at a time) with Miki, while Mao simply wants her next thrill.

It seems to me that morninglight gets information of Japanese skaters from raw sources in japanese language, so s/he may already know the two numbered lines below. I just write them to make a clearer perspective.

1. Morosov said in the past mid-season that he was encouraging Miki to do the quad "as well, of course!", and that he was planning to bring it possibly in the GPFinal, more probably in the Worlds.

2. Miki said that she had wanted, for her fans expecting it, to go for the quad in Tokyo since the Worlds held in front of her compatriots is something special, but that she made up her mind not to try what she hadn't rehearsed to the music, agreeing to Morosov's words "you can do it next season".

As for

morninglight said:

I wonder what makes these two ladies to be so motivated to do this jump.

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I agree to some of what feraina wrote;

feraina said:

But I don't think either Miki's motivations for wanting a consistent quad, or Mao's for axels and/or quad, rest mainly on their immediate rivalries -- rather, I think each of them is more interested in challenging themselves and perhaps in making history in figure skating.

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In my view Miki no longer feels any need to "make history" (she's done it already), but aspires to make further improvements, knowing that she needs to, for her own sake not for rivalry (this as feraina writes).
On the other hand Mao is yes seemingly very eager to make history, such as doing two 3A in one program.

While Mao takes Miki as her respectable competitor (and a close elder), for Miki it seems that Mao is more of a comrade and a good sample of "their" skating executions.

Miki's quad was a thing she started herself, and something she once took her pride in; but media over-branded her with that single element, making the public always wanting to see her doing it live. This made Miki feel obligated to do so, and not being able to do it cleanly, after her phisical changes came, is now perhaps to her frustration, I imagine.

She never placed quad as a tactic to beat anyone; once her joy and now her undone homework, quad will be in her to-do list as her motivation and obsession.
A fan like me hope that once it's done in a competition cleanly within her aesthetic satisfaction, she would put it in a frame and hang it on the wall. For I fear that her injury, (I agree to Makfe on that,) especially her shoulder, would prevent us from seeing more progress in her, which her fans are expecting the most.

Please forgive me for another lengthy post.

morninglight said:

So despite the disastrous performance, she said that she made a lovely memory of trying a quad at the Olympics, that she enjoyed herself, and that she would like to aim for a medal at the next Olympics. (Perhaps her comments were a bit too naive and too honest to herself though; these comments were received by the general public as a bit beyond the common-sensual understanding, which led to all the criticisms later on. I recall even a former prime minister, Yoshiro Mori, criticizing her). But despite all that, she has never said that she regret trying it.

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Miki was in my eyes (and in my heart) so deeply hurt by her own performance in Turin (if you could call that "her performance"). I really wondered how on earth she had the courage to be on the ice to the end of that program.
We should take her comments along with the deepness of her pain. What else a girl in a nightmare-came-true situation say anything positive to herself? Well yes, she was naive in telling her self-encouragement to the press.

On that TV coverage, Miki leaves the arena, in my eyes wanting much to fade away, but at the bottom of the stairs she somehow regains awareness and turns back, saying she needs to be in the audience supporting Shizuka.
And Shizuka makes the skate-of-her-life kind of a performance, so opposite to and distant from that of herself.

Miki's hearty congratulations to Shi-chan under such a contrast, and Shi-chan's hug to Miki was one of the most moving scenes ever.

Mafke said:

I'd like to see Ando working on fixing her lip and extensions (not the same as flexibility which I don't care about).
I'd like to see Asada fix her flutz, toe loop and salchow before tryng any quads (and those should have priority over the 3ax too). Does she really want to be the inspiration of an Asada rule?*
*the reverse twin of the Zayak rule, which would penalize skaters for not having enough different jumps with the same number of rotations?

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I agree! Fixing the other triples is a thing I would like too see from these two skaters!

satorare said:

The answer is obvious.
Ando can't beat "clean Mao" even with a quad.

The base value of Ando's current jump layout is about 46.6 pt (including bonus). If she replace 3S to 4S, it's 51.6 pt.

Mao already has the base value of 51.5 pt with one 3A. She has advantages in PCS and GOE compared to Ando.

Anyway, if Ando has a usable quad, she can be on top of everyone except "clean Mao".

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not sure. Miki just won the worlds with no quad and Mao was pretty much as clean as she could be. (A little double foot on the axel-toe combo). If Mao had done that combo cleanly it might have gotten her two more points or so, but still would have finsihed second to Miki if Miki had landed the quad.

Tinymavy15 said:

not sure. Miki just won the worlds with no quad and Mao was pretty much as clean as she could be. (A little double foot on the axel-toe combo). If Mao had done that combo cleanly it might have gotten her two more points or so, but still would have finsihed second to Miki if Miki had landed the quad.

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Maybe, but don't forget that Mao popped her triple loop in combination in the short program, which cost her a fair amount of points.

sorcerer said:

Please forgive me for another lengthy post.

Miki was in my eyes (and in my heart) so deeply hurt by her own performance in Turin (if you could call that "her performance"). I really wondered how on earth she had the courage to be on the ice to the end of that program.
We should take her comments along with the deepness of her pain. What else a girl in a nightmare-came-true situation say anything positive to herself? Well yes, she was naive in telling her self-encouragement to the press.

On that TV coverage, Miki leaves the arena, in my eyes wanting much to fade away, but at the bottom of the stairs she somehow regains awareness and turns back, saying she needs to be in the audience supporting Shizuka.
And Shizuka makes the skate-of-her-life kind of a performance, so opposite to and distant from that of herself.

Miki's hearty congratulations to Shi-chan under such a contrast, and Shin-chan's hug to Miki was one of the most moving scenes ever.

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Thanks for your beautiful post. You sound like her family or best friend

I do understand that Miki would be very disappointed and perhaps hurt by the way she skated. I also see Miki as a very sweet and strong girl. But considering all the public funds, human resources, and years of logistic preparation invested to make that rare, precious opportunity available to the skater, and thinking of the other competitors who couldn't make the Olympic team, I am afraid that I couldn't support either her exclusive focus on the quad at the expense of all the other elements and artistry, or the comments she made. That was a deep disappointment not only for her, but also for many of the people who supported her.

But I do think that perhaps she would have been just immature and naive at that time. What I think nice about her is that she progresses. She dramatically changed her attitudes this past season. She now says that she has to have the awareness that she has responsibility as a national representative.

Yet, Miki stated again that she would like to try it at the Worlds. Mr. Morosov also suggested to bring it back to her program this coming season. There also are movements for pushing female skaters towards quads. At the Worlds, Ms. Midori Ito was sending a public message to the Worlds team members that the regrets for trying a big trick are better than the regrets for not trying it. In Midori’s case, the answer was yes. But her triple axel seem to have been very secure and consistent, except for the temporal inconsistency that she had had during her Olympics. And the rules were different at that time. I am wondering if such challenging spirits that Mao and Miki seem to share really pay off.

Mafke said:

Does she really want to be the inspiration of an Asada rule?*

*the reverse twin of the Zayak rule, which would penalize skaters for not having enough different jumps with the same number of rotations?

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Good point I was also thinking the same thing. The ISU may eventually penalize the kind of jump layout that she had this season. But I trust Mao for bringing 3S back to her program some day near future. :agree:

morninglight said:

Good point I was also thinking the same thing. The ISU may eventually penalize the kind of jump layout that she had this season. But I trust Mao for bringing 3S back to her program some day near future. :agree:

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Mao is not the only skater without the full set of triple so I'm not sure if we will see a rule that will penalize someone without the full set of triples incorporated in the program. A bonus would be fine but a penalty or a strict rule about it would be too harsh... it would force more skaters to put in a triple that he/she is not consistent with and may just end up injured for trying it...

einna said:

Mao is not the only skater without the full set of triple so I'm not sure if we will see a rule that will penalize someone without the full set of triples incorporated in the program. A bonus would be fine but a penalty or a strict rule about it would be too harsh... it would force more skaters to put in a triple that he/she is not consistent with and may just end up injured for trying it...

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I agree, I'm pretty sure there won't be an "Asada Rule" in the future. Out of the top four ladies this year, not one has good technique on all five triples. Miki has a marked lip, Mao has the occasional toe-axel and her salchow is MIA, Yu-Na hates the loop and rarely even tries it in practice, and Kimmie's toe-axel is atrocious.

morninglight said:

You sound like her family or best friend
... I am wondering if such challenging spirits that Mao and Miki seem to share really pay off.

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Oh I wish I were her family or best friend, but of course unfortunately no.

I failed to point out that media had persistently expressed strong expectations for her quad, maybe only the quad, even Midori (and another one was Yuka?) who did the commentations on TV here insisted like now that she's come to the very edge of the springboard she's no choice but jump! go for it! ...That was her circumstance.

Even so, I mostly agree with you, morninglight, her comments were socially inappropriate and immature IMO.
I was just trying to say that it must've been only "partial" truth to herself when Miki said she made a good memory of trying a quad at the Olympics.

Now as for whether it'll pay off, if they succeed, it will.
If they don't, for us it won't, but for them it still seems to.

einna said:

Mao is not the only skater without the full set of triple so I'm not sure if we will see a rule that will penalize someone without the full set of triples incorporated in the program. A bonus would be fine but a penalty or a strict rule about it would be too harsh... it would force more skaters to put in a triple that he/she is not consistent with and may just end up injured for trying it...

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Sorry I just thought the catchy name a bit funny, but I was not seriously thinking that it would ever happen to Mao in reality. I would be concerned if Mao uses neither 3T nor 3S. But she at least put her 3T in her program this past season. I am also hoping that she would bring her 3S back.

But didn't the previous system encourage skaters to do a full set of jumps? Even if a penalty may be too harsh, a bonus sounds great to me.

I don't have any inside info on Miki's discussions with her coach, but I have heard the opinion that Miki practicing the quad in Tokyo was a decoy. Maybe she was trying to throw everyone off.

On another note, who is "Shi-Chan"?