- Joined
- Apr 13, 2007
Shi-chan is a neckname of Shizuka Arakawa who is close to her.
Fascination with a quad
- Thread starter morninglight
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2007
What Mr. Morosov says to the media tends to be aggressive. But he has the tactics to make the final decision at the last minute. That worked well for Shizuka and Miki. I do not necessarily think that Miki’s quad practice at Tokyo was a planned decoy as PolymerBob suggests; but he seems to be just flexible and skillful in his tactics.
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Logically, posters in this forum are right and objective about quads by saying they've got to fix their other elements first, or quad doesn't add any aesthetic value to a program, and most of all that it brings too much risk of injury.
But "logic only" doesn't seem to satisfy Mao nor Miki.
Mao is straight eager forward and looks like wanting a signature jump.
So if you can suggest her a safer and cleverer way to make such a wow-element, she might drop the quad and do that instead.
OTOH Miki's debt namely quad now might have grown even bigger within her, after Turin. If she's trapped in a situation where the only way to dismantle the curse is to jump a clean quad in revenge, someone must convince her that she's done that revenge already in a different way and that it's not a shame at all to outgrow her trauma. And she sort of knows well that wows in artistry are much more precious.
That said, if I were Miki, I wouldn't be able to forgive myself to have anything of "could do but now can't" at 19 or so. I'm confident I wasn't that mature at such an age.
But "logic only" doesn't seem to satisfy Mao nor Miki.
Mao is straight eager forward and looks like wanting a signature jump.
So if you can suggest her a safer and cleverer way to make such a wow-element, she might drop the quad and do that instead.
OTOH Miki's debt namely quad now might have grown even bigger within her, after Turin. If she's trapped in a situation where the only way to dismantle the curse is to jump a clean quad in revenge, someone must convince her that she's done that revenge already in a different way and that it's not a shame at all to outgrow her trauma. And she sort of knows well that wows in artistry are much more precious.
That said, if I were Miki, I wouldn't be able to forgive myself to have anything of "could do but now can't" at 19 or so. I'm confident I wasn't that mature at such an age.
I really don´t see quad as a "necessary" jump for any lady skater. Why not use the time for getting triple-triple combinations and maybe a triple axel reliable instead?
Could not agree with you more, Joe! The air position, a beautiful soft landing with a flow means so much. It really fantastic to watch Lambiel who has that ability among other great abilities.
Could not agree with you more, Joe! The air position, a beautiful soft landing with a flow means so much. It really fantastic to watch Lambiel who has that ability among other great abilities.
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- Joined
- Apr 13, 2007
Mao already has her signature jump, the beautifully light triple axel, although people are concerned if she could keep the consistency. Mao says that she is going to have two triple axels in the program, which would be enough to keep her struggle this coming season.
Besides, it seems to be often said that her current coach does not necessarily try his best to prevent injuries in his students, although I do not know if this is really a valid description of him (I hope not).
On the other hand, Miki seems to be hoping that she will be able to use it in competitions again (at least according to what she said back in late March). But I also feel that Mr. Morosov would intervene again and again at the last minutes whenever he thinks it unnecessary for her to win.
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- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
I agree - a bonus is the only thing that will encourage skaters to try a full set of triples - but the bonus would have to be high enough to close the gap between one of the lower level triples and a triple axel or triple lutz otherwise a skater like Mao would still net a higher number of points by doing two triple axels and two triple lutzes than substituting one of those higher level triples with a salchow to obtain a bonus.
Ant
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Mao has a triple flip/triple loop combination and I believe she is working on a triple Lutz/triple toe. So she could do two 3As, two 3Lz's AND the complete complement of triples.
Has any lady (Ito?) ever done all six different tripels, including 3A, in a program?
If the ISU really wanted this they could make a rule along the lines that you can't repeat more than one jump until you have attempted all five triples and a double or triple Axel.
Has any lady (Ito?) ever done all six different tripels, including 3A, in a program?
If the ISU really wanted this they could make a rule along the lines that you can't repeat more than one jump until you have attempted all five triples and a double or triple Axel.
Yukari did all six different triples in one program at Tokyo Figure Skating
Championships 2005.
This is the link for the protocol.
http://www.skatingjapan.jp/National/2005-2006/Figure/Block3/data0705.pdf
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
When talking about a complete set of triples, does one include those appearing to be clean in combos? I would like to see clean solo triples loops and salchows or at least using them as the first jump in a combo. The loop jump, in particular, needs some sort of momentum because it is an edge jump and no assisted toe-off is given it. Doing it as a first jump in a combo, I guarantee, you will never see, unless it is to show consecutive loop jumps.
Joe
Joe
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
I took great pleasure in going back to watch some Ito programs on youtube and found her 1992 Olympic LP: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7u0IdPBQIA
She doubled out on the Lutz combo so her jump count was:
- 2Lz/3T
- 3A (fall)
- 3F/2T
- 3Lp (hey joe check that out for a gorgeous solo triple loop!)
- 3A
- 3S
-2A
She got five triples because of the doubled Lutz. Technically under the rules at the time she only landed four becuase the second triple axel was not in combination so she violated the Zayak rule since in those days there were no phantom combos or sequences awarded.
I did then find her 1989 World LP (oops lost the link now!) in which she landed all six different triples. Jump count:
- 3Lz
- 3A (hung onto it!)
- 3F
- Intentional 2T (with hands on hips)
- Spread eagle into 3Lp
- 3T/3T
- 3S
- 2A
Seven triples landed included a 3A and a 3/3! She also does a mean bunny hop in that performance too!
I really like this idea!
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
I suggest you have a look at the Ito clips - her solo triple loop is a thing of beauty.
Also go back to the thread you started about this and look up all the skaters people pointed you to with their solo triple loops or triple loop/combos.
Off the top of my head Maria Butyrskaya used a triple loop/double toe in nearly all of her LPs (and i think used it in the SP as her combo for a couple of seasons). Also Sokolova uses a triple loop/double toe.
Ant
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
And actually if you're including salcows as the first half of a combination then many skaters use the 3S/2T - especially if they don't have any harder triple than a toe and salchow.
Michelle used the 3S/2T in the last few seasons of her competitive career.
Soldatova landed a 3S/3T at worlds once. Sokolova i think has also done the 3S/3T. Irina used 3S/3Lp and 3S/2Lp as combination for years often adding 2T or half loop 2S to the back of that for a three jump combo.
Ant
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Do I really have to go back to a past star jumper to get this?
Most of the replies were not based on Mao and Miki who do not do solo loop jumps, I believe, and prompted the question in IFS magazine.
Anyone start with a triple loop in a combo? during the CoP period? Just enquiring. I don't know.
Joe
Most of the replies were not based on Mao and Miki who do not do solo loop jumps, I believe, and prompted the question in IFS magazine.
Anyone start with a triple loop in a combo? during the CoP period? Just enquiring. I don't know.
Joe
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2006
On her first senior year, Mao did triple loop - double loop - double loop.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 2004
No, i believe MM or someone in the thread you started about the triple loop listed some 11 or 12 skaters that included either solo triple loops or triple loops that were used as the first half of a combination jump at this year's worlds.
But the question was - is the solo triple loop becoming a thing of the past (paraphrased) that does not mean just Miki and Mao it means everyone doesn't it? In any event up until this season (ending with Worlds in Tokyo) Mao Asada used a 3Lp/2Lp/2Lp combination in her LP - so she was using the triple loop as the first half of a combination under COP for the entire existance of COP up until this season.
Ant
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I really don’t see any mystery surrounding the loop jump. You do what you can.
In the 2004-05 season Mao Asada’s program included a 3Lz+2Lo and a solo 3Lo.
In 2005-06 she moved up to 3Lz+2Lo, 3F+2Lo, and 3Lo+2Lo+2Lo. (Her first two combos allowed her to do 2 Lutzes and 2 flips, and the extra 2Lo+2Lo on her triple loop element gave her an extra 3 points.)
In 2006-07 she upgraded again, this time to 3F+3Lo, 3Lz+2Lo+2Lo. Again, this allowed her work in two Lutzes, two flips and a triple loop, thus maximizing her CoP points. But now she can’t do a solo 3Lo, or an combo with a 3Lo as the first jump, because of the Zayak rule. (But with the extra jumping pass that she saved by not doing a solo loop she threw in a 2A+3T instead. )
(At 2005 worlds Slutskaya did 3Lz+3Lo, solo 3Lo , then 3Lo+2Lo 
hwell: She did not get credit for the third 3Lo.)
Ando's progression was similar to Mao's. In 2005-06 she did a 3Lz+2Lo and a solo 3Lo.
In 2006-07 she got a little better and upgraded to 3Lz+3Lo. So she couldn't also do a solo 3Lo.
None of the other girls can do a 3Lz+3Lo or a 3F+3Lo. So they all do a solo 3Lo in their programs. Meissner, Rochette, Poykio, Kostner (solo 3Lo and 3Lo+2Lo), Korpi (solo 3Lo and 3Lo+2T), Czisny, Sokolova.
Top ladies who did not do a loop at all at Worlds: Yu-na Kim, Nakano, Meier and Hughes. As far as I can tell from the protocols, this is just because the loop is a hard jump for them, not for any apparent strategic reason. Some skaters like those edge jumps and some don’t.
In the 2004-05 season Mao Asada’s program included a 3Lz+2Lo and a solo 3Lo.
In 2005-06 she moved up to 3Lz+2Lo, 3F+2Lo, and 3Lo+2Lo+2Lo. (Her first two combos allowed her to do 2 Lutzes and 2 flips, and the extra 2Lo+2Lo on her triple loop element gave her an extra 3 points.)
In 2006-07 she upgraded again, this time to 3F+3Lo, 3Lz+2Lo+2Lo. Again, this allowed her work in two Lutzes, two flips and a triple loop, thus maximizing her CoP points.
But now she can’t do a solo 3Lo, or an combo with a 3Lo as the first jump, because of the Zayak rule. (But with the extra jumping pass that she saved by not doing a solo loop she threw in a 2A+3T instead. )(At 2005 worlds Slutskaya did 3Lz+3Lo
, solo 3Lo , then 3Lo+2Lo hwell: She did not get credit for the third 3Lo.)Ando's progression was similar to Mao's. In 2005-06 she did a 3Lz+2Lo and a solo 3Lo.
In 2006-07 she got a little better and upgraded to 3Lz+3Lo. So she couldn't also do a solo 3Lo.
None of the other girls can do a 3Lz+3Lo or a 3F+3Lo. So they all do a solo 3Lo in their programs. Meissner, Rochette, Poykio, Kostner (solo 3Lo and 3Lo+2Lo), Korpi (solo 3Lo and 3Lo+2T), Czisny, Sokolova.
Top ladies who did not do a loop at all at Worlds: Yu-na Kim, Nakano, Meier and Hughes. As far as I can tell from the protocols, this is just because the loop is a hard jump for them, not for any apparent strategic reason. Some skaters like those edge jumps and some don’t.
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- Joined
- Apr 13, 2007
Although I do admire Mao as a super human talent, the reason why Mao's jump layout for this past season gave me a repetitive impression was perhaps because the kinds of the first/solo jumps were limited: three axels (one 3A, two 2As), two flips, and two lutzs, whereas both loop and toe-loop were the second/third jumps of combos. Another thing may be that the similar kinds of jumps came in series: 3A followed by 2A combo, and three toe jumps with the same leg (triple lutz, triple flip, and triple lutz combo) in the latter half. (Besides the music sounded kind of repetitive...). But if these were laid out differently, I might not have felt that way.
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I agree. But we have to blame the CoP, not the skater.
That skewed and repititious jump layout translated into a 133 point program -- the highest score ever for a ladies' LP.
The 3T and 3Lo come at the end of combos because no other jump can go there. The Lutzes and flips must come at the end of the program because that gives you an extra ten percent bonus. Fill up the rest of your jumping passes with double Axels because they don't count against your Zayak quota (that rule has been changed somewhat for the 2007-08 season, however).
Rafael Arutunian and Lori Nicole (Mao's coach and choreographer) can read the CoP rules just like we can, LOL. In the New Judging Era a point is a point.
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