What to expect from Caroline? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

What to expect from Caroline?

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I also feel that last season, Kimmie was feeling a slight pinch of the puberty bug. She has grown some and filled out a little more, and having to make subtle adjustments to deal with growth issues could have contributed to a slightly rough season last year.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Well, in all fairness I don't think you can call a couple of GP medals, a US title and a 4CC medal a "rough season". In fact, if you take away her worlds performance it's actually a drastic improvement from last season.

And this poor Caroline Zhang. She's the new Cohen- expected to deliver big very soon. I just think making the second FS warmup group will be an accomplishment for her at these events.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I thinnk this season will make Kimmie a seasoned skater. She will definiitely be competitive. If she does medal enough in her two GPs and makes the Final, plus a win at US Nats, she's on to Sweden with a quest.

I'm with all others who do not think it is necessary to push Caroline for gold only. She has a lot of talent and time to develop for gold even before 2010. Let's see what happens to these two American beauties.

Joe
 

london_calling

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 3, 2007
Well, in all fairness I don't think you can call a couple of GP medals, a US title and a 4CC medal a "rough season". In fact, if you take away her worlds performance it's actually a drastic improvement from last season.

I agree with that. Even placing 4th at Worlds was an accomplishment in my opinion.

I just hope Caroline does well this season and she doesn't let all the pressure affect her.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I know it's a necessity, it's just that she's already won it. Usually, people move up completely to seniors or, in some cases, compete in the SGP and Jr Worlds one season then go to Senior Worlds, like Mao .Caroline still has Jr Worlds 08... oh, that's it. Sorry, I thought she had two more to go, but I guess it's only one. My bad!

There's just a 2-year difference in the minimum age limits for junior vs. senior championships (13 vs. 15 by the previous July 1), so if a skater does happen to win the first year she's eligible, there will always only be one more year before she's eligible for Worlds, barring any further changes to the age rules.

(I use "she" because it's usually girls who win at 13-14, although Plyushenko wouldn't have been able to go to 1998 Euros and Worlds after winning juniors in 1997 if the current age rules had been in effect at the time without the loophole for junior world medalists and the grandfather clause for skaters who had already competed anywhere internationally as seniors in 1996-97.)

And the skater would be eligible for non-championship senior events such as the Grand Prix. But even if, like Asada, they win the Grand Prix Final during that in-between year, they still can't go to Worlds till the following season.

It's not that uncommon for skaters to go back to Junior Worlds after winning one year, either because they're too young for Worlds or because they can't make the world team in their country. What hasn't been done yet is for any singles skater to win again if she or he does go back.

Here's a list of most of the junior champions who returned to Junior Worlds after winning. It's not exhaustive because the ISU list includes only the medalists, so I had to look elsewhere and/or rely on memory for skaters that I knew had gone back and not medaled. There may be others that I'm not aware of.

Ladies
Simone Koch 1st in 1983, 2nd in 1984
Jessica Mills 1st in 1989, 4th in 1990
Elena Ivanova 1st in 1996, 3rd in 1997, 2nd in 1998
Daria Timoshenko 1st in 1999, 8th in 2000
Kristina Oblasova 1st in 2001, 11th in 2002, 9th in 2003
Mao Asada, 1st in 2005, 2nd in 2006

Men
Ilia Klimkin 1st in 1999, 4th in 2000

Pairs
Selezneva/Makarov 1st in 1980 and 1981
Avstriskaia/Kvashnin 1st in 1982 and 1983
Leonova/Krasnitski 1st in 1986 and 1987
Krestianinova/Torchinski 1st in 1991 and 1992
Petrova/Sikharulidze 1st in 1994 and 1995
Obertas/Palamarchuk 1st in 1998 and 1999, 2nd in 2000
Zhang/Zhang 1st in 2001 and 2003 (didn't compete 2002)

Dance
Durasova/Ponomarenko 1st in 1978 and 1979
Batanova/Soloviev 1st in 1980 and 1981
Krikanova/Platov 1st in 1984, 1985, and 1986
Anissina/Averbukh 1st in 1990, 4th in 1991, 1st in 1992
Romaniuta/Barantsev 1st in 2000 and 2001


Silver and bronze medalists who return and move up or down, or keep the same medal (or some combination if they come back more than once after first medaling), are even more common.

It's a competition. Just because you win one year doesn't mean you'll always win every time you compete at that level after that.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
I thinnk this season will make Kimmie a seasoned skater. She will definiitely be competitive. If she does medal enough in her two GPs and makes the Final, plus a win at US Nats, she's on to Sweden with a quest.

I'm with all others who do not think it is necessary to push Caroline for gold only. She has a lot of talent and time to develop for gold even before 2010. Let's see what happens to these two American beauties.

Joe
Well said Joe:clap::bow: ITA:agree:
 

Lanie

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Considering all the pressure on little Caroline about being the savior of American ladies skating in her first season as a senior, I really doubt she'll do well enough to beat a lot of the better-known and better-experienced skaters. I wouldn't expect perfect programs from her, nor should anyone else; too much pressure on a 14 year old girl! She has a lot to work on and she's mature enough to realize it.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
I wonder percent wise how many really feel she is the "saviour." ? I hear the talk, but also the "reality talk" that there are already some fantastic skaters that should not be counted out of the running. I see it more like the "deepen the field" much like the Japanese skaters have now. I do recently recall comments of Mao doing this to the Japanese ladies and here Miki won worlds this year.:clap: I would not count out Kimmie, Alissa, Katy and Bebe - etc.... These ladies still have it in them and we might just have more surprises on ice this next season. Also there are going to be a few more than just her climbing the ranks. She still has a "large task" ahead of her.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe I am over compensating for inappropriately judging her via one video when I first saw her - but I now get the feeling "nerves" aren't the issues she needs to overcome. IMO it is concentration.
 

SeaniBu

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
They go hand in hand. If you are extra nervous, it can be tough to fully focus.

Yes, well aware of that,;) I think it is a different approach though. I don't think it is the "nerves" that are making her loose concentration. JMO, but it doesn't seem like the pressure to me, it is the barrage of all these things happening that maybe causing her to loose focus - then she becomes nervous for she has lost concentration. Just a different idea.;)
 

netnuts

Match Penalty
Joined
May 3, 2007
I wonder percent wise how many really feel she is the "saviour." ? I hear the talk, but also the "reality talk" that there are already some fantastic skaters that should not be counted out of the running. I see it more like the "deepen the field" much like the Japanese skaters have now. I do recently recall comments of Mao doing this to the Japanese ladies and here Miki won worlds this year.:clap: I would not count out Kimmie, Alissa, Katy and Bebe - etc.... These ladies still have it in them and we might just have more surprises on ice this next season. .

It's too premature to call her the 'saviour'. She needs lots of technical work, nobody knows whether she'll be able to master a 3+3 in the future. She may never be able to, and that alone will doom her chance of being a top contender.

Except Kimmie, I would probably write off all other senior ladies including Alissa, Katy, Bebe and Emily. They've been around for quite a while, and not one of them has shown any real progress, on the contrary, most of these skaters have regressed due to various reasons.

The future is definitely in the Jr. ranks - Caroline, Wagner, Mirai, and maybe even Rachel.
 

flying camel

Medalist
Joined
Nov 16, 2005
I am pulling for Caroline to just skate well. She may not medal in any of her GP events, but for her I feel the medals will come eventually. I just want to see good performances. Which is what we did not see from the American ladies last season. Besides Kimmie there was just one triple jump between them. So, I hope having Caroline and Ashley will bring out the competitive spirit in the other ladies. They know they are going to have to skate a lot better to stay ahead of these girls.
 

feraina

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
But she is lacking, if not in speed, in ice coverage. She is just too small to cover the entire rink. Deficient ice coverage held Sasha back, too, in her first couple of years on the Senior circuit.

Have you seen Caroline skate in person? I get the feeling that her natural grace and smoothness give the illusion on TV that she skates with lack of speed or energy. Back when Marshall's was held, one poster at FSU forum who went to see the show said the following:
"Carolyn Zhang has got "it." I actually think she commanded the ice better than any singles skater last night except Sasha and Johnny. Sasha's flexibility+Michelle's presence= one hellava skater, who cares about the flutz."
http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/showthread.php?t=47484&page=13

I think her exhibition was probably her best program last year, and also this is of course just one eye-witness' opinion, but it's still pretty impressive that she was thought by some to command the ice better than all (senior level skaters) than Sasha & Johnny. I think if she can find a good program, with which she can really connect to the audience, AND if she doesn't lose her consistency, then she just might surprise people with some excellent programs and scores next season.

Caroline has much steadier spirals and better spins than Sasha did at a similar age. I think what's so special about Caroline is that she skates like she was born in a pair of skates. It looks totally natural and effortless for her. I personally prefer her musicality way over Rachael's, whose exaggerated hand motions and facial expressions I find jarring -- I didn't get Peggy's gushing about her at National's. To me, it looked very coached and unnatural. But of course, this may be totally a matter of subjective opinion, you needn't agree with me. :)
 

feraina

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
They go hand in hand. If you are extra nervous, it can be tough to fully focus.

Caroline strikes me as a competitor who doesn't really get nervous, or if she does, then she's very good at keeping it at bay. Her coach ZhuMing Li said that even though she doesn't have Chen Lu's stamina and power, she has more flexibility (as we all know) and mental toughness, and that the two had similar techniques at similar ages. Given that Chen achieved WC gold and silver medals, and two Olympic bronzes, under a less experienced coach and training in far poorer conditions, I think this bodes well for Caroline's future.

She only did poorly in one competition all of this past season, if "poorly" is the right word for someone who came back strongly after one fall in both SP and LP and came in a close second to Mirai with two perfect programs. Can you think of any lady in recent years who had a perfect season from start to finish without ever screwing up a single competition? Maybe Michelle Kwan, who else? Not even Mao (who seems invincible at times) in her first senior season, placing second to Suguri in Japanese National's, and second to Yu-Na Kim in JWC.

I think nerves is one department in which we do not need to worry overly wrt Caroline. As for her jumps, yes, she should work on the flutzing and the high leg-kick, but she has tight air positions, fast rotations, and clean landings, and most importantly she lands them consistently. She makes it all look so easy, and when she does have the occasional fall you feel really surprised (and she looks so herself). If I then go back and look at the senior ladies, I'm struck by how hard they make it look, popping or falling or fighting for the landings.
 
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feraina

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
There's a new article on Mirai Nagasu's decision to stay a junior, and also mentions Caroline and Ashley moving up to seniors.
http://www.latimes.com/sports/custo...tory?coll=la-sports-extras&ctrack=1&cset=true

Probably it's a good idea for Mirai to have at least one season on the JGP circuit anyway, but in the article it sounds like they may have partly miscalculated, believing that Mirai would only get one GP assignment -- given that Ashley, who placed lower at Nationals and WJC, got two.

It also says that they were invited to a Pro-Am competition after the 2007 season, which I guess means that we'll see both Caroline & Mirai at a cheesefest invitational in the fall. That should be quite fun, to see Caro & Mirai go head-to-head before National's, and also to see Mirai amongst the seniors. :)
 

Nigel

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
They go hand in hand. If you are extra nervous, it can be tough to fully focus.

When Caroline has been in the spot light with other competitive skaters, she has faultered.... US Novice Nationals, US Junior Nationals . The JGP series and JW were probably more tests of her ability to skate solid performances with less competitive skaters on the rosters, but under greater pressure, she has not delivered at this point. Not a criticisim, just an observation. Most likely nerves. IIRC, in an interview at US Natls this year following her performance, she kind of laughed when asked about the fall on the 2A, and even mentioned that she was not as focused as she needed to be. (or nervous...). Probably the reason behind some of the levels on her spirals and spins...not holding the spirals long enough or counting the # of revolutions in her spins. Again, these issues are signs of a developing skater...still in need of more experiences under the spotlight.

As others have posted, she certainly will deepen the field but is she the next Sasha or Michelle....it remains to be seen. She does need to improve her use of the ice surface area, increase her speed, improve her footwork sequences, jump technique. Her presentation is good, considering the type of music choices she has made over the years, but we would also like to see her develop greater musical variety, more dramatic and dynamic music (not just pretty ballerina type music) and some facial presentation as well...so that you can see that she really feels the music, not just choreographed responses. So, yes she is good, but still developing. Give her a season at senior to see what she can accomplish.
 
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Nigel

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
I think nerves is one department in which we do not need to worry overly wrt Caroline. As for her jumps, yes, she should work on the flutzing and the high leg-kick, but she has tight air positions, fast rotations, and clean landings, and most importantly she lands them consistently. She makes it all look so easy, and when she does have the occasional fall you feel really surprised (and she looks so herself). If I then go back and look at the senior ladies, I'm struck by how hard they make it look, popping or falling or fighting for the landings.

Caroline has yet to go through puberty. Most of the senior ladies out there have hit the puberty bug, are several inches taller than Zhang and outweigh her as well. Perhaps those factors contribute to more mature skaters doing what you describe as "popping, falling or fighting for landings"
 

feraina

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Caroline has yet to go through puberty. Most of the senior ladies out there have hit the puberty bug, are several inches taller than Zhang and outweigh her as well. Perhaps those factors contribute to more mature skaters doing what you describe as "popping, falling or fighting for landings"

While there are some skaters who were excellent at jumping at 13, and markedly deteriorated afterwards, that is certainly not the norm -- or else you'd see much better jumping at the junior competitions. The reason I was comparing Caroline with senior ladies was because she has even fewer competitors rivaling her jumping consistency at the junior level (with the exception of maybe Mirai & Ashley). If you look at Yu-na and Mao at 13, they were markedly less consistent with their jumps than Caroline is with hers, especially Yu-na, who btw didn't start incorporating 3/3's into her programs until 15 or so. Anyway, I wasn't just talking about Caroline's jumping consistency, I was mainly referring to how natural and steady she looks on ice in general.

Caroline faltered in the past seasons mainly because she was under-rotating and double-footing her jumps, not due to a spout of nerves -- or at least that's what I understand from reading other people's notes. I guess it's a matter of the glass being half empty, half full. Maybe some see her past season as a rare exception in an otherwise imperfect competitive history, whereas I tend to see her amazing progress in the past season as something to build on, as something boding well for the future. Only she can show us what the future really holds!
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
According to the LA Times article about Nagasu, her coach Charlene Wong said:

"We would like to increase Mirai's visibility and try out new skills at the junior level before being thrown into the fishbowl as a senior at nationals"

Does that mean that Nagasu will remain a Junior nationally as well as internationally?

BTW, Feraina, I have seen Caroline skate live, and I do feel she doesn't have the ice coverage of the more mature skaters.
 
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