What does Yu-Na Kim think of Caroline Zhang?

I wouldn't be surprised if Caroline starts landing 3-3 at practice, but I will be surprised (delightfully) if she lands them in competition. After all, only Yu-na and Miki have been landing them consistently at competitions (and only ladies who have 3-3 and pure lutz). Overall, Caroline is much more impressive than Yu-na was when she was 13. Still, Yu-na, and most top ladies, had an amazing height and QUALITY jumps when they were 13, 14, which isn't the case for Caroline. I don't think Caroline has unusual ability in terms of jumps, but I don't think lacking 3-3 will be that much of a problem for her because she has better spins and spirals, at least score-wise, than any of the current ladies.

Level 4 step sequence

YU-NA said in an interview that she and her coaching team(Brian Orser, and David Willson) is planning to show the level 4 steps, which has never performed by women, only 2 or 3 Men so far. I can't wait until to see what she might be able to show this year. But, I don't know the difference of Level 4 and level 3. Can any one explain it ?

beritaz said:

But, I don't know the difference of Level 4 and level 3. Can any one explain it ?

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In Level 4 Step Sequence your upper body has to be moving non-stop, you have to use tons of different kinds of complex steps and turns, and you have to constantly be alternating between steps and turns quickly.

I'm pretty sure that before CoP, NO skater ever had a step sequence that would qualify as Level 4. It's pretty crazy.

feraina said:

Yu-na had a solid season with LP in 2005-6, but when I looked up her YouTube performances prior to that, I was surprised to see how she struggled with her jump consistency. In her earliest videos, at 14 or 15, you could already see how much passion she skated with; it's impressive when a young lady can put that much heart into her skating, she's definitely got natural talent in this department. But she was not landing her jumps consistently.

As for Caroline, she has amazingly good techniques when it comes to spins, and her flexibility gets her extra kudos on spirals. While she has technique problems with her jumps, she does land them very consistently. No, she doesn't have a 3/3 yet, though rumors have it that she's practicing them. So let's SEE at SA what she brings out, shall we?

I don't think you should be TOO surprised if she "suddenly" does manage to incorporate 3/3's into her programs. After all, she "suddenly" stopped under-rotating her 3's last summer. Not one under-rotation in an entire past season, and that's more than you can say for Kimmie, Emily, Alissa, Rachael, Mao, just to name a few off the top of my head... This is especially impressive when she was getting jumps down-graded left and right throughout 2005-6. She states in her USFSA bio that her goals for the new season are to improve the "quality and difficulty" of the technical content of her programs, so let's give her a chance to show us what she can do!

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Yes, but there's a difference between underrotating a jump, and entering a jump incorrectly. Since everyone first learns a single, than a double, than a triple, I'm not a skater but I would assume that all skaters underrote jumps at first, when they are just learning them. But Caroline's other problems how she's taking off for the lutz/ and the flip suggest that she's fundamentally doing the jump incorrectly...And people have said that type of thing can take years to correct.. While Caroline may be consistent now with said technique, what happens if she grows? Then there is the fact that the new COP rules have enstated a mandatory deduction for things like flutzing.. And so Caroline will get docked probably majorily for how she enters those jumps.

I realize that certain skaters have things they excell at, that are different for everyone...But it seems to me that the best skaters who have been long lasting, are the ones who started out with strong technique... For example, I don't think at 13, Michelle was that exciting of a skater.. She was kind of skate skate jump/jump.. But Michelle Kwan at 13, had quality jumps and great basics, and she and her coaches were able to build on these things in order to make her that multi world champion and Olympic medalist that she became.. Yagudin is another skater who when he burst onto the scene wasn't very exciting, but Yagudin also had great technique...

It's kind of like two builders both start building two different houses at the same time.. Now one builder spends quite a bit of time working on the foundation of the house, where as the other builder works on the foundation, but perhaps moves quickly into making the house "look pretty." Now, if you were to go visit the houses when they were 3/4 of the way done, you may assume that hey the second house is a much nicer house... But in the end result, people will realize that its much easier to make a house prettier than it is to fix fundamental flaws.. I'm not writing Caroline off by any means.. But I'm just explaining why I"m more impressed with Mirai than let's say Caroline...

GoldMedalist said:

In Level 4 Step Sequence your upper body has to be moving non-stop, you have to use tons of different kinds of complex steps and turns, and you have to constantly be alternating between steps and turns quickly.

I'm pretty sure that before CoP, NO skater ever had a step sequence that would qualify as Level 4. It's pretty crazy.

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Thanks GoldMedalist. It sounds like more difficult than 3A. Maybe she should have started from earlier age like Caroline, because the possibility of having another injury could be higher and more severe at this time.

bekalc, I bow down to your post!

Not to mention that the positions that seem so effortless now, might not be so when Caroline develops hips and just a more curvy, female figure. Granted, that might not happen a la Sasha Cohen, but it's still unlikely. I do think Caroline is lovely to watch, but I think the bar is set incredibly high for her (not entirely her fault, with Mao and Yu-Na winning the GPF their first year out of juniors) . Many former Junior champs have gone on to have little senior success, and that's why I'd rather wait and see with her, and others.

I'm excited to see Yu-na's level 4 step sequence! To think of it, of all the top ladies, she and Mao have the best chances of pulling it off. Yu-na because she can really attack her steps aggressively and passionately, Mao because she has excellent edging and turns and basic skating skills.

I'm tired of this off-season, and it's only July! Can't wait to have some real skating to talk about, instead of speculations, predicitons, rumors, and last season's results...

I don't know how much effort skaters will be willing to invest in a level four step sequence. The difference in point value between level three and level four is only three tenths of a point (3.4 versus 3.1).

To put this in perspective, in her Worlds LP Kim gave up 27 times that many points (8 full points) by mistakes on her two Lutz jumps.

Great post, bekalc.

Whatever the points one gets for a Level 4 footwork sequence, one has to admit that it makes for a more exciting intricate element when judging ALL component scores of the PCS.

It's what one would call a 'skater's skater', because a skater understands that more than the layman.

Joe

Mathman said:

I don't know how much effort skaters will be willing to invest in a level four step sequence. The difference in point value between level three and level four is only three tenths of a point (3.4 versus 3.1).

To put this in perspective, in her Worlds LP Kim gave up 27 times that many points (8 full points) by mistakes on her two Lutz jumps.

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Although the base value is only .3 higher for a Level 4 Step Sequence (or Spiral Sequence), the positive GOE bonus is twice as high when you hit Level 4. It's definitely worth it for Kim to invest in, as she needs whatever points she can find to make up for Mao's Triple Axel.

bekalc said:

Yes, but there's a difference between underrotating a jump, and entering a jump incorrectly.

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I totally agree that these are quite different kinds of technical problems. And yet under-rotation is not that trivial a problem to fix, or Emily and Alissa, and even Kimmie on her 3/3, wouldn't be struggling so hard to fix them. There's no guarantee either, that the longer you skate or the harder you train that definitely you'll get rid of the under-rotation. IIRC, these three ladies have suffered more downgrading in 2006-7 than in 2005-6.

All that I tried to say was that it's quite remarkable that a skater can be
under-rotating left and right in one season, and then over the summer completely fix that problem and not be troubled by it in the following season. That is quite an improvement in technical terms. Since Caroline did achieve this remarkable thing as a precedence, I was thinking that although one might not expect it, one perhaps shouldn't be too surprised if she does manage to improve technically in some other dramatic way: by fixing her toe jump entrances, or by bringing aboard a 3/3.

feraina said:

I totally agree that these are quite different kinds of technical problems. And yet under-rotation is not that trivial a problem to fix, or Emily and Alissa, and even Kimmie on her 3/3, wouldn't be struggling so hard to fix them. There's no guarantee either, that the longer you skate or the harder you train that definitely you'll get rid of the under-rotation. IIRC, these three ladies have suffered more downgrading in 2006-7 than in 2005-6.

All that I tried to say was that it's quite remarkable that a skater can be
under-rotating left and right in one season, and then over the summer completely fix that problem and not be troubled by it in the following season. That is quite an improvement in technical terms. Since Caroline did achieve this remarkable thing as a precedence, I was thinking that although one might not expect it, one perhaps shouldn't be too surprised if she does manage to improve technically in some other dramatic way: by fixing her toe jump entrances, or by bringing aboard a 3/3.

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I realize that some skaters struggle with underrotation their whole career. But a year ago Caroline was what 12 years old. I could be wrong but that strikes me as the age where the youngster is still learning/polishing their triples, and as such I don't find it so shocking that she might go from underrotating her triples to full landing them... But who knows she could grow some more and have problems again with this..

However, people have said that when it comes to fixing technique how you enter jumps that can be difficult because you have to basically relearn the jump.

bekalc said:

I realize that some skaters struggle with underrotation their whole career.

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Strangely many of such skaters are the Americans.
Czisny, Hughes, Zukowski, Wagner..and above all, Kimmie Meissner.

rutinia said:

Strangely many of such skaters are the Americans.
Czisny, Hughes, Zukowski, Wagner..and above all, Kimmie Meissner.

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Didn't Arakawa struggle with underrotation a bit... Maybe it was just her 3/3's, but I remember wants the new rules on underrotation came out, she got pretty well dinged.

One thing about Caroline though is she does strike me as someone who has strong nerves and is a competitor, so I don't want to write her off.

Still, part of my feelings about Caroline, is due to lessons I have learned over the years as a skating fan, when it comes to go for the pretty/cute package young thing, that most of the time didn't bank very well.

Now, I've come to the conclusion that solid technique and having all the triples is a better indicator when it comes to the younger skaters.