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Thread: GP Finals and Tie Breakers - Help Me.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    GP Finals and Tie Breakers - Help Me.

    I see it happening again and last season's was a deuzy!! Joannie and Kimmie on the sidelines while Julia paraded in 2nd place on the list. Sooo many skaters tied and they had to go to the last tiebreaker to fill up the 6 places.

    http://isufs.org/events/gp2006/gpsladies.htm

    (if the above link doesn't work, please someone fix it.)

    I knew the rationale about the tiebreakers (after MM's explanation) but, of course, I need a reminder for the upcoming one which I am almost certain will end after the 6th GP in ties for the Finals.

    NOTE
    In the first tiebreaker Fumie and Kimmie did not make the cut; In the second tiebreaker (total scores) Kimmie had beaten Sara and Julia; In the third tiebreaker it looks like 23 people were tied; In the fourth tiebreaker Joannie, Kimmie, Yukari, Yoshie, and Sussana beat Julia and Fumie; In the fifth tiebreaker there are similar results; In the sixth tiebreaker again similar with Emily also beating Julia,

    I have not idea what those numbers mean in the 7th tiebreaker.

    MM, or anyone with an explanation to calm my nerves?

    Joe
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-29-2007 at 11:49 AM. Reason: Fix link.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    well I think that all this was caused by the fact that the system worked better when the skaters attended three GP events. Now with the skater doing one or at most two, there are too many diffrent medalists thus so many skaters come out with the same number of points. They either have to allow more skaters into the GPF or have the skaters attened three events, or find a new way of deciding who goes to the final... such as hwo posts the highest COP numbers or somthing.

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    Tanguera feraina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    well I think that all this was caused by the fact that the system worked better when the skaters attended three GP events.
    I thought even when you could attend 3, only 2 pre-designated events counted?

    or find a new way of deciding who goes to the final... such as hwo posts the highest COP numbers or somthing.
    I thought that highest total score was exactly how they determine the tiebreakers in the current system?

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by feraina View Post
    I thought even when you could attend 3, only 2 pre-designated events counted?



    I thought that highest total score was exactly how they determine the tiebreakers in the current system?

    yes, only two counted, but if you medaled at the third, that woudl prevent somebody else from doing so, thus the number if medalists was smaller. Yes, more unfair to the underdogs, but still.....

    The way that they detirmine who goes is bu giving each gold medalist 12 points, silever get 10 and bronze 8... i don't know if those are the numbers.... but you get the idea. Then they add up those numbers at the end and whoever has the most gets to go to the GPF. however as you can imagine with 6 events there will be many skaters with like 18 points or somthing... and then they have to find other ways of breaking the tie to decide who goes.

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    Tanguera feraina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    yes, only two counted, but if you medaled at the third, that woudl prevent somebody else from doing so, thus the number if medalists was smaller.
    Good point.

    however as you can imagine with 6 events there will be many skaters with like 18 points or somthing... and then they have to find other ways of breaking the tie to decide who goes.
    No, I meant that I thought they broke the ties by looking at the total COP scores, not 15 for Gold, 13 for Silver,11 for Bronze, etc.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I think some pairs teams still may get a third assignment, but not singles (new rule last year).

    The first tie breaker is highest palcement in an individual event. So for instance last year Mao Asada and Yu-na Kim, both with a first and a third, ranked ahead of Fumie Suguri with two seconds. And Joannie Rochette (1st and 4th) beat Kimmie Meissner and Yukari Nakano (2nd and 3rd) for seventh place.

    The second tie-breaker is total CoP points. Since these are the totals for four performances (two SPs and two LPs) and are computed to an accuracy of one one-hundredth of a point, it is virtually inconceivable that there would ever be a need to consider anything further. The information on the 3rd through 7th tie-breakers on the link that Joe provided would come into play only in the absurdly improbable case where two skaters had the exact same placements AND the exact same total CoP scores.

    Last year the only tie-breakers that mattered were Sarah Meier over Joannie Rochette (more CoP points) and Meier over Meissner and Nakano (1st and 4th over 2nd and 3rd).

    The only one with a legitimate beef is Meissner. She could argue that total points ought to be more important in the case of ties than placements. However, the original idea of the "Champions series" was that the finals would bring together the winners of the individual events for a grand showdown (with enough second-place finishers to fill out the field.) So I don't have any objection to giving weight to actually winning an event.

    As for Julia Sebestien, hey, she showed up, she skated, she won. Go Julia!
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-29-2007 at 11:47 AM.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I see it happening again and last season's was a deuzy!! Joannie and Kimmie on the sidelines while Julia paraded in 2nd place on the list...
    I don't think anyone will be able to sneak in this year by winning against a weak field. Last year Sebestyen only had to beat sub-par performances by Nakano and Hughes at Cup of China, and finish ahead of Onda and Sokolova for second place at Cup of Russia.

    This year, I don't see any easy pickings. We've got Ando and Meissner at Skate America (with Gedevanishvili as the dark horse), at Skate Canada it's Rochette, Asada and Nakano. Cup of China features Kostner, Kim and Suguri, in France it's Asada, Meier and Meissner; Russsia, Kim, Rochette and Suguri; and NHK, Kostner, Ando, Meier and Gedevanishvili.

    Anyone who wants to make the finals will have to skate for it.

    Actually, looking at this line-up, I like Meissner's chances of making the final. She could upset either Ando at Skate America or Asada at Eric Bompard (while holding off Meier). Or, if she gets two seconds, she has a pretty good chance of outpointing Meier, Gedevanishvili, Rochette, Suguri or Nakano on the tie-breaker.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    NOTE In the first tiebreaker Fumie and Kimmie did not make the cut; In the second tiebreaker (total scores) Kimmie had beaten Sara and Julia; In the third tiebreaker it looks like 23 people were tied...
    Fumie got a 2 instead of a 1 on the first tie breaker only compared to all those skaters who had a total of 26 points.

    There were three people who tied with 26 points, Asada, Kim and Suguri. On the first tie-breaker, Asada and Kim get a 1 (15 + 11 = 26) and Suguri gets a 2 (13 + 13 = 26). So Asada and Kim beat Suguri on the first tie breaker.

    On the second tie breaker, Asada beats Kim (more total points). So the ranking within the "26 ponts" category is Asada, Kim, Suguri.

    The third tie breaker is: If two people have the same total placement scores and one of them did it by skating in only one event, while the other one skated in two, the skater with two events wins the tie-breaker. The reason everyone is tied in this category is that all listed skaters did two events.

    The only way this could ever come into play is if someone (like Alissa Czisny did last year, for instance) had a 9 and a 0, and someone else skated in only one event and got a 9. AND the two events of the first skater added up to the exact same number of points as the one event of the second skater.

    If that ever happened I would eat my hat.

    I would eat my hat AND my do-rag.

    I would eat my hat, do-rag, wig, weave and extentions.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-29-2007 at 12:52 PM.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I have not idea what those numbers mean in the 7th tiebreaker.
    The seventh tie breaker is the number of skaters that competed in your two events. So the idea is, it is better to beat 10 other skaters than to beat 9.

    Here is the ISU document about tie-breakers (scroll down to page 6).

    http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

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    Rabbit Tycoon dutchherder's Avatar
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    I love you, Mathman!

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    Tanguera feraina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The reason everyone is tied in this category is that all listed skaters did two events. The only way this could ever come into play is if someone (like Alissa Czisny did last year, for instance) had a 9 and a 0, and someone else skated in only one event and got a 9.
    This rule is kinda crazy. we already know from the first tiebreaker that the highest placement wins, so someone with 9 from one event would beat everyone else who had 9 from two events, as long as it wasn't (9+0=9), in which case the 9+0 person wins. Someone explain the rationale to me, please!

    To get 0 you have to place 9th or lower; it seems to me that this rule is rewarding wildly inconsistent skaters like Emanuel Sandhu.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I don't think anyone will be able to sneak in this year by winning against a weak field. Last year Sebestyen only had to beat sub-par performances by Nakano and Hughes at Cup of China, and finish ahead of Onda and Sokolova for second place at Cup of Russia.

    This year, I don't see any easy pickings. We've got Ando and Meissner at Skate America (with Gedevanishvili as the dark horse), at Skate Canada it's Rochette, Asada and Nakano. Cup of China features Kostner, Kim and Suguri, in France it's Asada, Meier and Meissner; Russsia, Kim, Rochette and Suguri; and NHK, Kostner, Ando, Meier and Gedevanishvili.

    Anyone who wants to make the finals will have to skate for it.
    Of course, at this point there's no way of ruling out the possibility that at any given event one or two of the favorites will withdraw and another one or two will have unexpectedly subpar performances, allowing either one of the subpar favorites or someone else entirely to win that event and qualify for the final with a fourth-place showing at her (or his) other event.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ Which is the good thing about competitions.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Actually, looking at this line-up, I like Meissner's chances of making the final. She could upset either Ando at Skate America or Asada at Eric Bompard (while holding off Meier). Or, if she gets two seconds, she has a pretty good chance of outpointing Meier, Gedevanishvili, Rochette, Suguri or Nakano on the tie-breaker.
    I agree I think Meissner has a good chance to make the Finals this year. (replacing Sebstyen from last year's list) and I think Joannie, too will make it in Canada and Russia (replacing Fumie or Meier from last year's list). Zhang looks good in China but kinda doubtful in America.Kostner, too may make it with silvers in China and Japan. And there is the lovely Megan Oster to brighten up our hears in her first SGP.

    Oh, how can we get to see all of this? :banging:

    Joe

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    Tanguera feraina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Oh, how can we get to see all of this? :banging:
    Um, IIRC, I think NBC/ESPN is still carrying the GP series (minus SA) this year.

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