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Thread: Boy Do We Need Some French In Our Skating Today!

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    Boy Do We Need Some French In Our Skating Today!

    Ever since the PCS system has come into play, I think the creativity in skating has gone out the window............

    This really hit hard to me recently, when I was reviewing some old figure skating tapes, and saw Abitbol and Bernadis Addams Family FP from Euro's 2002. Now that was some exciting skating! Then that reminded me of Gusmeroli Rat d'Hotel Program, and other interesting programs put out by the French.

    I want some creativity and exciting programs back into skating. I want to see moves that made me say, "wow that's different!", like the bow lift, the sliding spiral, some hydroblading, or a double/triple flying spin combination (i'll even settle for a scratch spin at this point...or better yet..a simple Nikodinov layback). I used to think that a T.Flip-T.Toe was exciting, but now that's even a drag when a skater can barely fit in a spread-eagle...

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    Brian Joubert' wife (I wish...) _Ladybug_'s Avatar
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    Awwww Abitbol and Bernardis are my all time favourites!

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Delobel and Schoenfelder are by far the most interesting dance team out there.

    http://www.postimees.ee/260206/gfx/2...e1e383b6_2.jpg

    But the French men have lost their mojo. Can you imaging Brian Joubert doing this?

    http://www.aquadesign.be/im/news/images/img-4736.jpg

    Or this?

    http://www.pirouette-online.de/uploads/pics/Ti9710.jpg

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    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TtonyV7 View Post
    I want some creativity and exciting programs back into skating. I want to see moves that made me say, "wow that's different!", like the bow lift, the sliding spiral, some hydroblading, or a double/triple flying spin combination (i'll even settle for a scratch spin at this point...or better yet..a simple Nikodinov layback). I used to think that a T.Flip-T.Toe was exciting, but now that's even a drag when a skater can barely fit in a spread-eagle...
    I think that "should" be under the classification of choreography. It is up to the skaters, coaches and choreographers to bring this on under the new sys. I think it circumvents the issue to blame it on the new PCS. Change that and you go right back to the immense amount of subjectivity and relativity in "taste" that was spawn to the "credibility questioning of scoring." IMO, there is NO way to fairly judge interpretation as a mark. And it should be further improved to remove the marks from PCS, and the lack of creativity and "cookie cutter" programmes would be negatively reciprocated in the marks of choreography. JMO

    Del and Scho are a great example of it still being present IMO, but there are many others as well that are not from France - and I really think that doesn't have much to do with it particularly if you look at BJ for example.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaniBu View Post
    I think it circumvents the issue to blame it on the new PCS. Change that and you go right back to the immense amount of subjectivity and relativity in "taste" that was spawn to the "credibility questioning of scoring." IMO, there is NO way to fairly judge interpretation as a mark...
    And yet...IMHO that is the difference between a judged sport and a sport where you tally up points. I think there is a way to "judge" interpretation. If I am a figure skating judge, I say this team's interpretation of the character of the music was great and that team's was awful. That's why we have judges and not just referees and scorekeepers.

    What I really think is that subconsciously figure skating judges are resisting being phased out of relevance by the new judging system. I think they are using the PCSs like ordinals -- I like this skater the best, so I'll give him 8.5s, I liked that skater the second best so I'll give him 8.25s, etc.

    Just my own opinion, but I do not object to this. Figure skating should never allow itself to be reduced to poll vaulting, where 19 feet 3 and a quarter inches beats 19 feet 3 and 3/16th inches, end of story.

    They should put Delobel and Schoenfelder on the podium just for their sheer originality and (uniquely French, IMO) entertainment value, LOL.

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    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    They should put Delobel and Schoenfelder on the podium just for their sheer originality and (uniquely French, IMO) entertainment value, LOL.
    And in the spectators views they maybe. What is more important, the marks of 201 or their individual? "Tallying up" is adding them up if they came from defined number of seconds / feet high / etc.. or I liked this better than this - they both are "tallying up the points" anyhoo. Then what is the difference of how many inches off the ice they jump. It is all the same thing, judging that is. Maybe the "idea" of what a judge really is a a question. After all refs and ump are there to just say yes and no, it is up to others to mark the point scored which is the same as judging. ~ they base the points given on whether or not the element was a yes or a no. Judging can add more then a "base value." IMO the only real difference - at least it should be IMO.

    When it comes down to it, a horse may have won the "beauty" portion, but should that really have any standing on whether it wins the race?

    Generally speaking anyway, a judges primary role is to make a decision based on fact, not whether or not they "liked" one client better than the other.
    "Mrs Jones, your case had more substance, used more facts and provided better argument, but I "liked" the way the prosecution looked and they used fancier words, so I award the case to the prosecution. ?????"
    Last edited by SeaniBu; 07-07-2007 at 12:18 PM.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Delobel and Schoenfelder have long been favorties of mine. I usually love watching thier originalality in thier programs. what i did not like was the "untouchables" last year... hopefullly they will treat it as a mistake and move on.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeaniBu View Post
    When it comes down to it, a horse may have won the "beauty" portion, but should that really have any standing on whether it wins the race?
    That's an excellent analogy. In horse racing there is only the "tech."

    The tradition of figure skating, on the other hand, is that it is half tech and half beauty contest, half sport and half performance art.

    The ISU has made a conscious decision, with the new judging system, to push figure skating more in the direction of sport and less in the direction of performance art. For better or for worse, IMHO they are getting what they asked for.

    But (MHO) the way in which the CoP stifles creativity is on the tech side, not the PCSs.

    Every man has the same 14 elements in the LP to work with. Point-wise, the 8 jumps are so much more important that anything else that the rest can be disregarded. Any man would be a fool if he did not do 4S, 4T, 4T+3T, 3A, 3A+3Lo, 3Lz, 3F, 2A+2Lo+2Lo – or a reasonable facsimile thereof.

    If you can’t do all that, then you do as much of it as you can. The person who comes closest wins. Slam, bam, thank you ma’am, just like a horse race.

    PS. Most beautiful horse: Big Red, Secretariat, 1970-1989

    Secetariat: http://www.circledhorses.com/Secretariat_Derby.jpg

    The Secretariat of figure skating : http://www.dallasnews.com/img/photo/...EN_0140833.JPG
    Last edited by Mathman; 07-07-2007 at 12:33 PM.

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    MY TVC 1 5 SeaniBu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That's an excellent analogy. In horse racing there is only the "tech."
    I thought Dressage would have been a better example - I was afraid to bring it up, don't know that to well. Racing is always simple in who wins.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    If you can’t do all that, then you do as much of it as you can. The person who comes closest wins. Slam, bam, thank you ma’am, just like a horse race.
    But I think a "big fat 0" for choreography might effect things.

    I agree with the point made MM But I don't feel it is necessary from a subjectivity POV to make a mandatory mark for "interpreting someone's interpretation."

    If it were in any real way associated with a Beauty contest, the "elements performed on stage" would be in a completely different format. Skating is like only having the talent contest. point is, judging of the two are different as well. The "personification of beauty and expression through song while competing in a sport" is there in most skaters by nature of FS.

    To me - I could be alone on this - the point of choreography is to create and convey the "feelings of interpretation" to the viewer. What else is it for? How smart it is they put the triple after the half way mark? If the programme was "lifeless" then the skaters ability to use choreography is obvious, a not used to full potential "element of score" gets lower marks.

    *shrugs*

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    The Secretariat of figure skating : http://www.dallasnews.com/img/photo/...EN_0140833.JPG
    Brilliant! Almost as brilliant as the MTM reference, turning the world on with her smiral.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Every man has the same 14 elements in the LP to work with. Point-wise, the 8 jumps are so much more important that anything else that the rest can be disregarded. Any man would be a fool if he did not do 4S, 4T, 4T+3T, 3A, 3A+3Lo, 3Lz, 3F, 2A+2Lo+2Lo – or a reasonable facsimile thereof.
    My dream program, in terms of jumps:

    4T + 3Lo
    3A
    4S + 3T
    4T
    -----------
    4S
    3F, out of a Spiral position
    3Lz, out of footwork
    2A + 3S + 2A, sequence

    Base value: 77.22

    LOL.

  12. #12
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    What, your guy doesn't have a 4F?

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