Technical content disparity in ladies skating

krenseby · Jul 7, 2007

I think that in the last year or so technical disparities between the top 5 ladies skaters and the rest have made podium finishes impossible for those out of the top 5.

In the 1990s, a slew of ladies competitors had the triple-doubles and single triple jumps needed for a podium finish. A lady who was in 11th or 9th place at one Worlds could move up into the top 5 simply by completing all of her jumps successfully.

Now, many ladies won't be able to make it into the top 5 even if they complete a perfect program.. Imagine Alyssa Czisny having an absolute perfect skate at Worlds. She completes 7 triples with two triple-double combinations in both short and long program. With not a single mistake on any of her jumps, she would still not make the top 5 or 6! That's because the other ladies with triple-triples will come out on top of her. You could apply the same formula to Sarah Meier and Joannie Rochette who will never ever make the podium no matter how flawless their programs are. The triple-triple gap is too difficult to compensate for with other jumps or program components.. Beautiful spirals, Ina Bauers, and spins won't make the difference. Neither will choreography.

That said, I hope the next generation of ladies skaters will have triple-triples at their disposal so that they have even a remote chance of making the podium or top 5 that most of today's ladies cannot. Most ladies competitors of today are behind their time. They cannot dream of medals but only of a top 10 finish. The best example of that is Fumie Suguri. This three-time World medalist wouldn't make the top 5 even at her best even though she has been competitive before.

Tonichelle · Jul 7, 2007

but, all Alyssa and her perfect skate need is for a couple of the top ladies to falter... which most of the time the bigger the arsenal... the bigger the 'fall' in standings when mistakes begin to happen.

Mathman · Jul 7, 2007

Toni makes a good point. No matter how many triple Axels you have planned, you still have to land them.

Actually, though, it is the same in every sport. Some athletes are better than others. Roger Federer is going to win Wimbledon because he is better than anyone else.

chuckm · Jul 7, 2007

Sarah Meier and Joannie Rochette have yet to skate a clean FS at a major international event. That is the reason they haven't made the podium, not the lack of a 3/3.

GoldMedalist · Jul 7, 2007

krenseby said:
The best example of that is Fumie Suguri. This three-time World medalist wouldn't make the top 5 even at her best even though she has been competitive before.

She would have taken Bronze at this past World Championship if she had skated her best (this conclusion was come to by looking at her Scores from 2006 Worlds and assuming that she hadn't made any mistakes on the jumps...her total score would have surpassed Yu-Na Kim's).

chuckm said:
Sarah Meier and Joannie Rochette have yet to skate a clean FS at a major international event. That is the reason they haven't made the podium, not the lack of a 3/3.

I do think Meier deserve Bronze at 2006 Worlds, though! Cohen was very, very lucky to be gifted with that medal after her worst performance ever...

Kypma · Jul 8, 2007

GoldMedalist said:
She would have taken Bronze at this past World Championship if she had skated her best (this conclusion was come to by looking at her Scores from 2006 Worlds and assuming that she hadn't made any mistakes on the jumps...her total score would have surpassed Yu-Na Kim's).

Maybe, but Fumie didn't even get to go to Worlds 2007 because Japan has so many strong ladies that Mao, Miki and Yukari got to go... and all placed top five, if I'm not mistaken. Although top three, if you assumption about Fumie is right, would have been awesome to see.
Kypma

Ladskater · Jul 8, 2007

krenseby said:
You could apply the same formula to Sarah Meier and Joannie Rochette who will never ever make the podium no matter how flawless their programs are. .

Never is a long time!!!! How do you know? Do you have a crystal ball?

mskater93 · Jul 8, 2007

There was the same complaint of disparity between the top 4-5 men and the rest of the field a few years ago with quad jumps.

I will say, that US Adult Nationals proved to me that you don't have to have the highest technical mark to win overall if the judges are doing their job correctly. In one of the Championship events, the lady that won overall had the third or fourth highest tech mark but was marked very clearly higher than everyone else in PCS (and rightly so as she was LOVELY and deserved to win overall). Her differential in the PCS mark was around 6 or 7 points! I know, the tech mark there is MUCH lower, but 6-7 points on PCS is a HUGE differential (especially when the tech mark is that low (~13.5))!

Tinymavy15 · Jul 8, 2007

For the last decade or so we have been predicting that so and so needs a triple-triple to win and miss so and so will win becasue of her triple triple. Up until this year it hasn't really been the case. the girls who planned the 3/3's fell, or didn't do them, or were injured or whatever. But this year what we predicted came true. Mao did not do a triple triple in the SP at worlds, thus she did not win. Kimmie did a triple triple at nationals so she did. The riegn of the triple triple has begun.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 8, 2007

I'm with you, Krenesby. Jumps rule with one convoluted spin. There are about 5 ladies who can manage these feats. Even if two falter, there still is no room for the podium of others and more than likely the two falterees will be 4th and 5th. That's the way it is in Skateland.

Joe

emma · Jul 9, 2007

Mathman said:
Toni makes a good point. No matter how many triple Axels you have planned, you still have to land them.

Actually, though, it is the same in every sport. Some athletes are better than others. Roger Federer is going to win Wimbledon because he is better than anyone else.

I too agree with Toni - and we could likely compare today's bunch of technically amazing skaters to, say Harding and Ito's era....and notice that they didn't always win either!

So - a hearty and most deserved congrats to 5 consecutive Winbeldon winner Roger Federer (ok, that wasn't exactly grammatical, was it?)...but, Rafa Nadal sure deserves - imo - a round of applause too - wow!!!

Mathman · Jul 9, 2007

emma said:
]...but, Rafa Nadal sure deserves - imo - a round of applause too - wow!!!

For a minute there I thought I was going to have to eat my words, LOL.

emma · Jul 9, 2007

Mathman said:
For a minute there I thought I was going to have to eat my words, LOL.

LOL - funny thing was I was like - OMG NADAL Is going for a total upset - and I was so suddenly torn - who to route for ??!!!??? Federer is awesome and has to break the five strait record next year (so needed this year to do it) - but Nadal is unbelievable - (and not too hard on the eys if I may say so myself)...anyway, this is too off topic....(but, VENUS WILLIAMS ....!!!!!)

enlight78 · Jul 11, 2007

emma said:
LOL - funny thing was I was like - OMG NADAL Is going for a total upset - and I was so suddenly torn - who to route for ??!!!??? Federer is awesome and has to break the five strait record next year (so needed this year to do it) - but Nadal is unbelievable - (and not too hard on the eys if I may say so myself)...anyway, this is too off topic....(but, VENUS WILLIAMS ....!!!!!)

I felt so sorry for Nadal. He work so hard and was so close. I couldn't stand watching him with his head down. GOOOOOO VENUS QUEEN OF WIMBLEDON.

feraina · Jul 12, 2007

I too felt so bad for Rafa. You could just feel the disappointment oozing out of him, and how hard it was for him to sound upbeat and sportsman-like to give that speech at the awards ceremony. I don't blame him either, because he was SO close in taking that 5th set. I felt a lot of fire went out of him when he had that knee problem, and even though afterwards physically he may have recovered, mentally he seemed to have lost a lot of mentum... He was still bitter-sounding later on in the press conf. I hope he got some much deserved beach, sun, and rest in Mallorca afterwards like he's planned!

Joesitz (RIP) · Jul 12, 2007

Roger tied Borg's record at Wimbleton. Borg is/was the greatest tennis player in every poll.

Nadal has time.

Joe

feraina · Jul 12, 2007

Rafa needs to improve on his serve: better placement in particular. Then he has a chance to beat Roger consistently, and not be aced out of the tiebreakers.

enlight78 · Jul 13, 2007

feraina said:
Rafa needs to improve on his serve: better placement in particular. Then he has a chance to beat Roger consistently, and not be aced out of the tiebreakers.

I agree.

kappa_1 · Jul 13, 2007

We have definitely entered the age of the triple-triple as a poster said before. Not only are these ladies getting more powerful jumps in their arsenal, but they are landing them consistently. Other skaters like Suguri, Czisny, Meier, et al can no longer lie on their presentation + power jumpers like Mao messing up because these power jumpers are getting more artistic, fierce, and consistent. Some of these skaters are arguably getting inflated PCS scores along with their triple-triples, too.

This reminds me of (and going along with the tennis theme) tennis players like Martina Hingis, Monica Seles (after her prime), et al circa 1999 when the new breed of power players started getting a lot more consistent and well-rounded. They could no longer rely on getting free points from players like the Williams', Comeback Capriati, Davenport, and Clijsters who really used to be unforced error machines. That sub 90 mph serve from Hingis just could not cut it any more. Sure her game was pretty, but a slightly 'on' Serena would just steamroll her. That Hingis/Capriati Aussie open 2002 final still breaks my heart to this day. Henin, whose finesse certainly stood out, gained power as she went along and we all know how her story went. Federer is ahead of his time, and that is all (unlike Ito however, he has no judges or compulsory figures to hold him down).

I dream that artists like Meier, Czisny, Rochette, Cohen, Poykio can at least mount future Worlds podiums. It's crazy that their jump contents are still insanely amazing, but just not amazing enough.

Mathman · Jul 13, 2007

kappa_1 said:
It's crazy that their jump contents are still insanely amazing, but just not amazing enough.

ITA. You can give a tremendous 6 or 7 triple program and still find youself 10 points behind the new stars, in terms of points on jump elements.

With Asada and Kim being the Willams sisters, they may put such a distance between themselves and the rest of the field that it will come down to one of those all-Williams finals.

(OT, when Venus meets Serena in the finals, that "protective big sister" comes to the fore -- Venus just can't help it -- and somehow, Serena always wins!)

Technical content disparity in ladies skating

krenseby

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

Mathman

chuckm

GoldMedalist

Match Penalty

Kypma

Ladskater

~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~

mskater93

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

Joesitz (RIP)

emma

Mathman

emma

enlight78

feraina

Joesitz (RIP)

feraina

enlight78

kappa_1

Mathman

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