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Thread: Is a triple-triple really necessary for the Ladies discipline?

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Is a triple-triple really necessary for the Ladies discipline?

    Is a triple/triple really necessary (ladies)?

    At 2007 Worlds, only three ladies did a successful triple/triple combination in the LP. On the other hand, that was the podium – Ando, Asada and Kim.

    How important is this element? The Zayak rules prevent a skater from using a triple-triple to rack up points.

    Skater A does 3Lz+3T, 3F+3Lo, 3Lz, 3F, 3S+2Lo+2T in her first five jumping passes. She is running away with the competition!

    But now she’s done. She can’t do any more triple jumps at all. The best she can do is two double Axels in her last two passes.

    Skater B does 3Lz+2T, 3F+2Lo, 3Lz, 3F, 3S. Blah. But now she can finish with 3Lo and 2A+3T. She is has done exactly the same triple jumps as skater A and is only 2.7 points behind. Easy to make this up in spins, spirals and PCSs.

    1. Should the CoP be adjusted to give more points to triple jumps done in combination than to the same jumps done singly?

    2. In practice, do judges do this anyway by inflating the GOEs and PCSs for the big jumpers?

    3. Realistically, could skater B win the World championship over skater A?

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    1. realisticlly, it's is just as easy... in some cases easier to do a triple in combo than it is by itself. however, i feel that the base points should not change, but a point of so "bonus" should be given to any combo

    example: lutz = 4points
    loop = 3.6 points

    lutz/loop combo = 7.6 points
    + 1 points for the combo


    = 8.6 points.


    2. yeah, the judges have to stop thinking that just becasue the guys land quads they also have better chreo, interprtation, skating skills etc.... not FAIR!

    3. yeah, of course. Sasha has beat the triple triple and triple axel laden miessner with no triple triples. And so did michelle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    1. Should the CoP be adjusted to give more points to triple jumps done in combination than to the same jumps done singly?
    Yes, absolutely. I have a whole system thought-out that would fix all the issues with CoP. It's not totally typed out yet, though. I do, however, have my own self-made protocols for the 2007 World Championships using MY revised CoP judging system. It's glorious. I'll post it all when I finish writing it up the rule revisions.

    Also, yes, a 3/3 is definitely required for Ladies now. Just as the 3Lutz/2Toe used to be the "requirement" to place on the top. The next period of evolution in figure skating has arrived.

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    yes it is, especially for the sp, points are irrelevant a 3-3 is a difficult element that seperates the ladies from the girls and tells the judges who to favor and who to watch!~!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldMedalist View Post
    Also, yes, a 3/3 is definitely required for Ladies now. Just as the 3Lutz/2Toe used to be the "requirement" to place on the top. The next period of evolution in figure skating has arrived.
    I'll reserve my judgement and wait a bit skeptically, we've heard this many times before.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldMedalist View Post
    Yes, absolutely. I have a whole system thought-out that would fix all the issues with CoP. It's not totally typed out yet, though. I do, however, have my own self-made protocols for the 2007 World Championships using MY revised CoP judging system. It's glorious. I'll post it all when I finish writing it up the rule revisions.

    Also, yes, a 3/3 is definitely required for Ladies now. Just as the 3Lutz/2Toe used to be the "requirement" to place on the top. The next period of evolution in figure skating has arrived.
    Watch skater's do a Single Triple Loop Jump and how they slow down to prepare for it.d I have never seen that Jump at high speed as in the case of salchows, flips and lutzes.

    Now watch them do it as a tagged on second or third jump where they just bounce into it. Much easier to just tag it on and bounce into it. The momentum is already there and one doesn't have to slow down to prepare for it.

    Of course, in both cases, the Triple should be fully rotated, but with Loop Jumps, there is a lot of forgiving if it isn't.

    Joe

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveT View Post
    I'll reserve my judgement and wait a bit skeptically, we've heard this many times before.
    The top 4 at Worlds this year all had a 3/3. The past 4 World Champions all had a 3/3. Little girls are being taught 3/3's more actively and being brought up around CoP.

    It's just a natural progression of the sport. The same as the Quad for the Men. Nobody has won a World title without the Quad since 1998.

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    yes yes yes, yes yes yes

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    The advantage of a 3-3 is not just 2.7 points.
    Look at the decisive gap of PCS between Kostner and Nakano/Meier.
    It's not explicable by "choreo" or "transition" things.
    Skaters without 3-3s are not considered favorites by judges.
    The departures of MK and SC have set the new standard for ladies.

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    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutinia View Post
    The advantage of a 3-3 is not just 2.7 points.
    Look at the decisive gap of PCS between Kostner and Nakano/Meier.
    It's not explicable by "choreo" or "transition" things.
    Skaters without 3-3s are not considered favorites by judges.
    The departures of MK and SC have set the new standard for ladies.
    yeah. now that is wher the COP is all wrong. Nakano had better chreography in her SP than Kostner and just as good as Yu-Na Kim. Because she lacked the 3/3 her PCS were lower? Why must the PCS always match up with the technical side? that's not how it is for a lot of skaters. In fact most skaters are either jumpers or artists. thier scores shoudl reflect this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Watch skater's do a Single Triple Loop Jump and how they slow down to prepare for it.d I have never seen that Jump at high speed as in the case of salchows, flips and lutzes.

    Now watch them do it as a tagged on second or third jump where they just bounce into it. Much easier to just tag it on and bounce into it. The momentum is already there and one doesn't have to slow down to prepare for it.

    Of course, in both cases, the Triple should be fully rotated, but with Loop Jumps, there is a lot of forgiving if it isn't.
    What a fascinating change of subject. I don't think I can agree, though.

    If doing Loops in combination were as easy as simply "bouncing" into it, I'm sure we would be seeing more 3/3Loops. But it's not easy to control that edge and jump off the one foot right after another jump. The air position can quickly become awkward and cause a fall or bad landing. You also say the momentum is already there but sometimes it ISN'T. I long for a World where all my jumps have textbook run-out! That is why toeloops are much easier - you have a second to re-steady your body position, if needed, when you do a toeloop in combination and the toepick means the rotations come easier.

    I'm also surprised that you've never seen a solo 3Loop with much speed because Mabee did one at this past Worlds. It's true that the entrance is generally slower in comparison to other jumps but that's simply because of the nature of the jump...requiring pre-rotation on a deep outside edge. That alone doesn't mean it's harder solo, though. It's actually the opposite...doing the jump solo means you have time to set up the edge, in combination you don't.

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    I dont agree on Nakano vs Kostner or Na-Kim. Nakano is not a polished skater at all, and she is very introverted as a performer. She does not have much presence or command out there either. Yeah her choreography is good, but it takes more then that to get the second mark, and the judges lump the PC segments all together seemingly, so basically just evaluate a skaters presntation as a whole then lump each together anyway.

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    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rutinia View Post
    The departures of MK and SC have set the new standard for ladies.
    If you change that to MK and IS (SC is not quite in their league though she has been influential in her way) I'll agree, as long as we understand that new does not necessarily mean better.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    GM. - With the exception of Mabee who maybe a specialist in loop jumps, I'm just suggesting you watch all skaters doing single 3loop jumps at high speed and certainly not a lady skater. How many will get it without underrotating? and those that do, how many will not have it interfere with the musical tempo? How many will turn on the ice at 1/2 before jumping? Even Slutskaya slowed the program down to carefully do three turns into a loop jump. (pretty move, though, and not the usual struggle other skaters have for the single loop take off.)

    Then look at 3loop jumps as a second or third jump in a combo. (Trust me, you will never see it as a first jump unless you cite Tara who often did both without moving) Almost all will do the combo at a musical tempo and only the Tech Asst knows for sure that it was done correctly.

    Time to set up is bad choreography which doesn't happen in combo jumps. But then there are many observing fans who only watch the jumps. I'm just an old fashioned whole package fan.

    Joe

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    Tripping on the Podium
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    GM. - I'm just suggesting you watch all skaters doing single 3loop jumps at high speed and certainly not a lady skater.
    ...
    (Trust me, you will never see it as a first jump unless you cite Tara who often did both without moving)
    Here's a high speed triple loop -triple loop by a lady skater http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tN3kFdYskQ
    I won't trust you anymore

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