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Thread: Is A Quad Really Necessary for the Men?

  1. #1
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Is A Quad Really Necessary for the Men?

    There are 4 Ladies with more than decent 3x3s.

    There are 4 Men (including Evgeni) with more than decent Quads.

    Can Johnny, Jeffrey, Nobunari, Evan, Thomas, Kristoffer get on the podium without one?

    IMO, only if one of the more assured of the 4 will faulter in his LP. And which one is anyone's guess. Of course you can name a favorite.

    Joe

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    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Well... Jeff got on the olympic podium after falling on his quad...

    I dunno I think the only way it could come into serious play is if Evgeni just uses every quad he has lol... it's really not something all the top names have

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    Skating Freak Barbie
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    Um, I think that Joubert "has" more quads than Evgeni. Brian has landed 2 different quads in a program. I don't recall Evgeni landing a 4sal and 4toe in the same program. Yes, he's claimed to land some of the others in practice. But if we go by that, Cohen "had" a quad.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    On paper, there is a crucial difference between how the new judging system treats quads for men and triple-triples for ladies. A triple-triple counts against a skater's Zayak ceiling, so a program with a triple-triple may not score all that many points more than a program without.

    But a 4T and a 3T are two separate jumps, so doing a 4T carries a double bonus -- big points in its own right AND it gives you more space under the Zayak cap to do more triples.

  5. #5
    ~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~ Ladskater's Avatar
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    According to Paul Martini who commentated last year for the CBC - "In order to win the men must come armed with the quad." So yes, unfortunately the quad is the deciding factor in who stands at the top of the podium.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Can Johnny, Jeffrey, Nobunari, Evan, Thomas, Kristoffer get on the podium without one?
    Thomas and Evan will be doing the Quad/Triple combo in both the Short and Long Program from now on. So, no, they can't get on the podium without the Quad because if they mess them up too bad their entire programs will be affected by the miss.

    Johnny, Jeffrey, and Oda can get on the podium with a Quad.

    Kristoffer has no chance of a podium spot unless the top skaters are getting injuries left and right that cause them to skate very poorly and/or withdraw. Or unless he skates pristine clean ALL season long, building momentum and thus gaining the judges' respect (which is something he doesn't have yet).

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    quads can make a huge diffference but only if they are done well, which often times they are not and receive negative GOE.

    a 4-2 combo in the sp is worth less than a 3-3

    in the sp skaters that cannot do a 4-3 would be best advised to do the quad as their solo jump, and do a 3-3 for the combo

    a shaky quad-double combo in the sp or lp would receive alot less points than a great 3-3 combo so i think quads are undervalued in CoP

    imo quads toe loops should be worth around 12 - 13 points, not 9

    jeffrey buttle exploits weakness in CoP to maximise points like earning 5 points for a planned fall on a quad. which helped earn him a prestigious olympic medal. encouraging skaters to fall to earn points and win medals, is imo , a sign of a scoring system with serious problems/flaws.

    so really, perhaps quads are important, but not to actually land them, but to rortate them to pick up 5 points...every skater should learn to rotate and fall on a quad in their program to earn those xtra 5 crucial points. of course a fall mars a program , but this does not matter in a points based system.

    a quad is not nessesarry at all imo CoP emphasises the entire package, spins especially can earn great points.

    since CoP spins have really become waaaaaay important, being flexible is as important as jumping
    Last edited by Taan; 07-29-2007 at 01:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    Well... Jeff got on the olympic podium after falling on his quad...
    That wont happen anymore. As same, buttle's skate at Tokyo would be enough to put him on the podium of Moscow. The time has changed.

  9. #9
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post


    But a 4T and a 3T are two separate jumps, so doing a 4T carries a double bonus -- big points in its own right AND it gives you more space under the Zayak cap to do more triples.
    I know those are the rules at present, but they really work against quality skating cause I guy can load up on toeloops (I recall Plushenko and Yagudin both doing three toe loops in the SP, yechhhhh) and get a bonus without demonstrating well rounded jumping skills.

    If I could change one thing about COP it would be that the 3tl and 4tl are not differentiated for zayak purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taan View Post
    in the sp skaters that cannot do a 4-3 would be best advised to do the quad as their solo jump, and do a 3-3 for the combo
    You're not allowed to do the Quad as the solo jump. It has to be a Triple, out of footwork.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    I know those are the rules at present, but they really work against quality skating cause I guy can load up on toeloops (I recall Plushenko and Yagudin both doing three toe loops in the SP, yechhhhh) and get a bonus without demonstrating well rounded jumping skills.
    Your solo jump has to be different than either of the jumps you did in combination. I'm pretty sure. You can do 4T + 2T and then 3T as your solo jump, but not 4T + 3T and then 3T.

    I can't recall ANYONE doing 3T as their solo jump, though (in the past several years). Not any serious competitors anyway.
    Last edited by GoldMedalist; 07-29-2007 at 09:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldMedalist View Post
    You're not allowed to do the Quad as the solo jump. It has to be a Triple, out of footwork.
    Either is allowed (for senior men only). They're just not allowed to do quads for both those jump elements, even if they're different quads. I'm sure that if it ever becomes commonplace for men to be doing two different quads in their long programs, then doing two (different) quads in the short will also be allowed.

    In fact, in the 1999 and 2000 seasons, when quads were first allowed in the short program, they were *only* allowed as the jump out of steps, not as the combination. Not that many of the guys who tried were doing many steps before them.

  12. #12
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    The biggest difference for me between the Short and the Long is the time duration. There are so many DON'Ts for both contests and I really do not see any purpose of having the two. I presume the avid fans would be upset if the Short was taken away - not for competitive reasons but for personal passionate skating needs.

    Joe

  13. #13
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldMedalist View Post
    Your solo jump has to be different than either of the jumps you did in combination. I'm pretty sure. You can do 4T + 2T and then 3T as your solo jump, but not 4T + 3T and then 3T.
    You're right, I was thinking back in 6.0 terms. I'm glad for at least that change (but want more!).

  14. #14
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    I think that skater's don't need a quad to medal but they need one to win. Evan Lysack, Jeffrey Buttle both medaled at worlds with no quad. What i would like to see is somebody winning worlds without one, but with Evgeni's return i doubt that will come true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Either is allowed (for senior men only). They're just not allowed to do quads for both those jump elements, even if they're different quads. I'm sure that if it ever becomes commonplace for men to be doing two different quads in their long programs, then doing two (different) quads in the short will also be allowed.

    In fact, in the 1999 and 2000 seasons, when quads were first allowed in the short program, they were *only* allowed as the jump out of steps, not as the combination. Not that many of the guys who tried were doing many steps before them.
    Ah, I didn't realize CoP still went along with that. I haven't seen a Quad out of footwork for a very long time.

    I remember the "steps" Michael Weiss did into his Quad for the 2000 SP consisted of...a spread eagle held for 1 second. LOL. People don't try Quads out of footwork for good reason.

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