Is A Quad Really Necessary for the Men?

Joesitz said:

And for my next element, I shall do a Quint - Drum Roll, please!

Joe

Click to expand...

Did you ever see the top jump competition?? I think some are available on youtube - it was pretty much like that!

Ant

antmanb said:

Did you ever see the top jump competition?? I think some are available on youtube - it was pretty much like that!

Ant

Click to expand...

I haven't seen that comp, but I would like to. That's Sport!! I used to watch barrel jumping when I was a kid. Probably not as exciting now as it was then.

Joe

Johnny Weir's Quad isn't consistent

Click to expand...

True. I don't remember him doing a clean quad in competition. He's done a couple of good ones (I mean the ones filmed) in practice/ warm-ups. They look pretty light, not forced, not like tricks but.... and I'm sorry - a bit under-rotated.

As for the triples, Johnny's 3A is beautiful, but his loop isn't, it does look forced. I don't think it matters that much though. It's all about points, one-foot landings, the right # of rotations, and the GOE total, which never exceeds + 2, no matter how good your jumps are.

To me, it's the same old question. Do you enjoy watching/participating in figure skating as a sport ("higher, faster, stronger") or as entertainment (moving gracefully, expressing the character of the music).

For the boys who consider themselves athletes first, they'll do everything they can to outleap the other fellows. Youth rules!

For fans who are not so much interested in high-powered athleticism, that's why we have show skating.

But the figure skating is a sport. Certainly that is necessary a quad, and when all the boys do it the quintuple will be necessary. It is the sport, to come increasingly far................Partly, it is the only thing that me does not please the skating.
The fans get angry with those persons who do not consider this sport to be a "real" sport, but strictly between ourselves we criticize the athletes who practise it. Why it is worse Plushenko, Joubert or Lambiel that Weir, for example?
Why they are stronger and are capable of doing things that others do not do?

calica said:

But the figure skating is a sport. Certainly that is necessary a quad, and when all the boys do it the quintuple will be necessary. It is the sport, to come increasingly far................Partly, it is the only thing that me does not please the skating.
The fans get angry with those persons who do not consider this sport to be a "real" sport, but strictly between ourselves we criticize the athletes who practise it. Why it is worse Plushenko, Joubert or Lambiel that Weir, for example?
Why they are stronger and are capable of doing things that others do not do?

Click to expand...

And Sport does not need music. Once music becomes part of sport you have Ballroom Dancing, Synchronized Swimming where music plays a big role in the timing of the moves.

Whether you sail into the sky or turn your body like a spinning top, music doesn't matter that much in figure skating. The timing is irrelevant. It's just the elements that count.

My answer to your question, calica, would be that Johnny just isn't sporty enough. The others are showing all that ability to do the most difficult of tricks, and that's all that matters. Johnny is more in the Ballroom Dancing class.

I don't like my answer but that's the way it is in Skateland.

Joe

Asking if skating is a sport or art (or entertainment) will always give you the wrong answer.

The real answer is: Skating is a _discipline_. This means (among other things):

- athletic prowess and artistic inclinations both have to be expressed within a narrow, formalized framework

- higher, faster, farther is subordinate to the question: Is it done right? (this is what drives me crazy about flutzes, the skater is putting 'more revolutions! more points! ahead of Doing It Right)

What I dislike about quads in general is that almost no skater can make one look like a natural part of what they're doing.
The only exceptions were Yagudin, Plushenko (before 2003) and Goebel (and there only because of his general lack of commitment to presentation meant that they didn't stick out anymore than playing the accordion or sitting down in the middle of the rink for a few moments would).
Pretty much every other skater (and Plushenko since 2003) have to take special 'quad time' out of their regularly scheduled program to... prepare .... earnestly (quica!) fortheQUAD! which destroys anything like body line, pacing or connection with the music. Missing it sucks the life right out of the program and hitting it doesn't improve things at all.

I understand what you say, and partly I agree. He is a more plastic skater (I do not like the word "artistic") because of it his accounts with more raised in this level, but in the "athletic" part he fails (and others too ) Then the winner is the most complete sportsmen , and now to be more complete he is to have quad.

What I dislike about quads in general is that almost no skater can make one look like a natural part of what they're doing.
The only exceptions were Yagudin, Plushenko (before 2003) and Goebel

Click to expand...

True enough but please look at Lambiel and Joubert this season. I think you missed Stephane's beautiful take off , ease of turning, low landing with great flow out. Joubert's quad is different in that it appears to me to be more majestic. Between the two it's a pick your choice but both of them are right up there with Plush, and Yags.

Joe

Mafke said:

Goebel (and there only because of his general lack of commitment to presentation meant that they didn't stick out anymore than playing the accordion... .

Click to expand...

But IMHO it wasn't his committment that was at fault, he just didn't have a natural fluidity of motion and innate sense of pace and rhythm. I though he made astounding progress in presentation skills between, say, 1998 and 2002, considering how far he had to go.

why is the quad a trick and a 3 jump isn't, though?

Click to expand...

Because it completely over powers any program. Once the skater prepares to jump the quad the choreography and indeed the entire story they are trying to convey is lost. At that moment it becomes truly nothing more than a jumping event. They need large amounts of ice to prepare, then they need to muscle and push through it (good skating is supposed to look easy) and then when they land it sometimes they pump their fist in the air. If at any moment the story of the program and the music is over shadowed by any one element it becomes a trick imo. It's amazing to see yes, but the program should work as a whole, no one thing should over power it. Jumps are supposed to be light and airy, they are supposed to flow seamlessly with-in the program and punctuate high moments in the music. If any skater can land a quad with a light ride out, not need huge time and space to prepare for it, stay loose with-in the air, and have it work with-in their music I'll like it. The only one I think can do this is Lambiel.

Because Johnny Weir's Quad isn't consistent, clearly.

Click to expand...

I "clearly" didn't say anything about Johnny Weir, but then again I can read.

As for Johnny, his quad is no where near consistent and when he does try to land one it is just as much a trick as when someone else does, perhaps even more because the ambiguity as to whether or not he'll land it is greater.

Joesitz said:

True enough but please look at Lambiel and Joubert this season.

Click to expand...

I'll give you Lambiel can do a quad and make it fit the program (but his triple axel has the same effect that other skaters' quads have so it's sort of a wash)

Joubert is more in the Goebel mode for me. It doesn't stick out because nothing much is hanging together anyway.

Mathman said:

But IMHO it wasn't his committment that was at fault, he just didn't have a natural fluidity of motion and innate sense of pace and rhythm. I though he made astounding progress in presentation skills between, say, 1998 and 2002, considering how far he had to go.

Click to expand...

Yeah by 2002 and 03 he (Goebel) was actually getting an idea, never really for an entire LP IIRC (my favorite of his programs was his 2002 SP) but he was having more and more spells where the movement and music were related, he made a huge amount of progress from the first time I saw him (2000). Unfortunately then came the boot/jump problems and Goebel without the big jumps was ....

Some people in whatever field develop slower than others in the same field, but they do eventually make the grade and many go on to go beyond that grade, but only if they stick with it.

Unfortunately, Goebel who was coming a long in his performance, let his signature past jumps falter. It really hurt him to take that year off not only from a skating point of view, but from practicing his quads.

Joe

Mathman said:

But IMHO it wasn't his committment that was at fault, he just didn't have a natural fluidity of motion and innate sense of pace and rhythm. I though he made astounding progress in presentation skills between, say, 1998 and 2002, considering how far he had to go.

Click to expand...

His SP at the 2005 nationals has yet to be topped

Interesting to analyze the top 5 finishers at World events from 2000-2002 just as far as the quad factor alone:

2000 Worlds

Gold - Yagudin: no quad try in qualifying, 1 quad clean in short. 2 quads clean in final long, one quad-triple (shaky), one solo quad toe.

Silver - Stojko: Pulled out mid-air on 1 quad in qualifying, fell on 1 quad attempt in short, fell on 1 quad attempt in final long.

Bronze - Weiss: 1 quad clean in short, step out of 1 quad attempt in final long.

4th - Plushenko: Fell on 1 quad try in qualifying, 1 quad clean in short. Doubled first quad try, tripled second quad try, fell on third quad try in final long, all quad toes.

5th - Abt: two footed 1 quad in qualifying, no quad try in short, two footed 1 quad in final long.

2001 Worlds

Gold - Plushenko: fell on 1 quad in quailfying, 1 quad clean in short of quad toe-triple toe. 1 quad clean in final long, in a quad toe-triple toe-double loop combination.

Silver - Yagudin: fell on 1 quad in qualifying, 1 quad clean in short of quad toe-triple toe. 1 quad clean in final long, in a quad toe-triple toe combination (shaky).

Bronze - Eldredge: no quad tries in any program.

4th - Goebel: 3 quads clean in qualifying, a quad salchow-triple toe, a solo quad toe, a solo quad salchow. 1 quad clean in short of quad salchow-triple toe. 2 quads clean in final long, a clean quad salchow-triple toe, a clean solo quad salchow, stepped out on a 3rd quad of quad toe.

5th - Honda: 1 quad clean in qualifying, fall on 1 quad in short, fall on 1 quad in final long.

2002 Olympics

Gold - Yagudin: 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe-double loop. 2 quads clean in final long, a quad toe-triple toe, a solo quad toe.

Silver - Plushenko : fall on 1 quad in short. 2 clean quads in long, a quad toe-triple toe-triple loop but two footed and underrotated the triple loop, a solo quad toe.

Bronze - Goebel : 1 quad clean in short, a quad salchow-triple toe. 3 quads clean in final long, a quad salchow-triple toe, a solo quad toe, a solo quad salchow.

4th - Honda : 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe. 2 quads tried in long, stumbling out of a quad toe, and tripling a quad salchow.

5th - Abt : 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe. 1 quad try in long, fall.

2002 Worlds

Gold - Yagudin : 2 quads clean in qualifying, a quad toe-triple toe, a solo quad toe. 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe combination. 2 clean quads in final long, a quad toe-triple toe-double loop, a solo quad toe.

Silver - Goebel : 2 quads clean in qualifying, a quad salchow-triple toe, a solo quad toe. 1 quad clean in short, a quad salchow-triple toe. 3 quads clean in final long, a quad salchow-triple toe, a solo quad toe, a solo quad salchow.

Bronze - Honda : 1 quad clean in qualifying, a solo quad toe. 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe. 2 quads tried in final long, a clean quad toe, and a stumble out of a quad salchow.

4th - Abt : 1 quad clean in qualifying. 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe. 1 quad try in long, a step out of a solo quad toe.

5th - Chengiang Li : honestly dont remember at all.

2003 Worlds

Gold - Plushenko : 2 quad toes clean in qualifying, a quad toe-triple toe-double loop, a solo quad toe. 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe. 2 questionable quads landed in long, a quad toe-triple toe-double loop with turn out, a quad toe maybe a bit two-footed.

Silver - Goebel: 2 quads clean in qualifying, a quad salchow-triple toe, a solo quad toe. 1 quad clean in short, a quad salchow-triple toe. 2 quads probably clean in long, a quad salchow-triple toe, a quad toe maybe slightly two footed.

Bronze - Honda: 2 quad tries in qualifying, a solo quad toe clean, a stumble out of a quad salchow. 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-double toe. 2 quad tries in final long, a stumble out of a solo quad toe, a clean quad salchow.

4th - Chengiang Li: 2 quads clean in qualifying, a quad toe-triple toe, a quad salchow. 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe. 2 quads clean in final long, a quad toe-triple toe, a solo quad salchow.

5th - Michael Weiss: 2 quad tries in qualifying, a clean quad toe triple toe, a two footed solo quad toe. 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe. 2 quad tries in long, dont remember exactly but definitely missed both.

2004 Worlds

Gold - Plushenko: 2 clean quads in qualifying, a quad toe-triple toe-double loop, a solo quad toe. 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe. 2 quads clean in final long, a quad toe-triple toe-double loop, a solo quad toe.

Silver - Joubert: 1 quad clean in qualifying. 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe. 2 quads clean in final long, a quad toe-triple toe, a solo quad toe.

Bronze - Lindemann: 1 quad clean in qualifying. 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe. 1 quad landed in final long, a quad toe with a bit of hand down.

4th - Lambiel: 1 quad clean in qualifying. 1 quad try in short, falls. 2 quads in long, a quad toe-triple toe with step out of triple toe, a solo quad toe.

5th - Weir: no quad tries


2005 Worlds

Gold - Lambiel : 2 quads clean in qualifying, a quad toe-triple toe, a solo quad toe. 1 quad landed in short, a quad toe-triple toe with a bit of hand down on the quad. 2 quads clean in final long, a quad toe-triple toe, a solo quad toe.

Silver - Buttle : no quad tries

Bronze - Lysacek : no quad tries

4th - Weir : no quad tries

5th - Chengiang Li : 1 quad clean in qualifying, a quad toe-triple toe. 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe. 2 quads clean in final long, a quad toe, a quad salchow.

2006 Olympics

Gold - Plushenko : 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe. 1 quad clean in long, a quad toe-triple toe-double loop.

Silver - Lambiel : 1 quad landed in short, a quad toe-triple toe touching free foot down on triple toe. 2 quad tries in long, a clean quad toe-triple toe-double loop, semi-fall on solo quad toe.

Bronze - Buttle : no quad tries in short. 1 quad try in long, fall on quad toe.

4th - Lysacek : no quad tries.

5th - Weir : no quad tries


2006 Worlds

Gold - Lambiel : 2 quads in qualifying, a quad toe-triple toe, a solo quad. 1 quad in short, a clean quad toe-double toe (shaky). 2 quads clean in final long, a quad toe-triple toe, a solo quad toe.

Silver - Joubert: 1 quad landed in qualifying, hand down on quad toe-triple toe. 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe. 2 quads clean in final long, a quad toe-triple toe, a solo quad toe.

Bronze - Lysacek: 1 quad try in qualifying, fall on quad toe. no quad try in short. 1 quad landed in final long, a quad toe-triple toe, stumbling badly out of triple toe though.

4th - Oda: no quad tries.

5th - Sandhu: 1 quad try in qualifying, stepping out of a quad toe. 1 clean quad in short, a quad toe-triple toe. 1 clean quad in final long, a shaky quad toe-double toe.


2007 Worlds

Gold - Joubert: 1 quad clean in short, a quad toe-triple toe. 1 quad clean in long, a quad toe.

Silver - Takahashi: no quad try in short. landed quad in long, quad toe with hand down.

Bronze - Lambiel: no quad in short, planned quad toe-triple toe popped into triple toe-double toe. 2 quad tries in long, a clean quad toe-double toe-double loop, a semi-fall on solo quad toe.

4th - Verner: no quad try in short. 2 clean quads in long, a quad toe-triple toe, a solo quad toe.

5th - Lysacek: 1 quad try in short, a quad toe stumbled out of. 1 quad landed in long, a quad toe-double toe with turn in between two jumps.

Joesitz said:

And Sport does not need music. Once music becomes part of sport you have Ballroom Dancing, Synchronized Swimming where music plays a big role in the timing of the moves.

Whether you sail into the sky or turn your body like a spinning top, music doesn't matter that much in figure skating. The timing is irrelevant. It's just the elements that count.

My answer to your question, calica, would be that Johnny just isn't sporty enough. The others are showing all that ability to do the most difficult of tricks, and that's all that matters. Johnny is more in the Ballroom Dancing class.

I don't like my answer but that's the way it is in Skateland.

Joe

Click to expand...

But that cuts back to Tonichelle's point of asking if a quad is a trick then why is a triple not! Come on Johnny Lands perfect 3A/3T combinations...why is that less sport than adding half a rotation to the first jump?

Ant

Mafke said:

Asking if skating is a sport or art (or entertainment) will always give you the wrong answer.

The real answer is: Skating is a _discipline_. This means (among other things):

- athletic prowess and artistic inclinations both have to be expressed within a narrow, formalized framework

- higher, faster, farther is subordinate to the question: Is it done right? (this is what drives me crazy about flutzes, the skater is putting 'more revolutions! more points! ahead of Doing It Right)

What I dislike about quads in general is that almost no skater can make one look like a natural part of what they're doing.
The only exceptions were Yagudin, Plushenko (before 2003) and Goebel (and there only because of his general lack of commitment to presentation meant that they didn't stick out anymore than playing the accordion or sitting down in the middle of the rink for a few moments would).
Pretty much every other skater (and Plushenko since 2003) have to take special 'quad time' out of their regularly scheduled program to... prepare .... earnestly (quica!) fortheQUAD! which destroys anything like body line, pacing or connection with the music. Missing it sucks the life right out of the program and hitting it doesn't improve things at all.

Click to expand...

I'd agree with you about Goebel (for the reasons you gave!) but not about pluschenko or yagudin - they both set up the toe loop in exactly the same way everytime - cross overs round one end of the rink then skate in a straightline towards the opposite corner, mohaw to backwards, step to LFO edge, three turn, right foot down and jump - an entire rink length of set up to the jump.

Ant

antmanb said:

But that cuts back to Tonichelle's point of asking if a quad is a trick then why is a triple not! Come on Johnny Lands perfect 3A/3T combinations...why is that less sport than adding half a rotation to the first jump?

Ant

Click to expand...

Personally, I think all elements are tricks including spins, but I think what Toni was saying was that, 3-1/2 air turns are enough. Just about every young skater can attain that as a goal and the 'sport' will then be judged on it's 'artistic' merits. I think that's what figure skating is also about.

Since the 'sport' leans heavily towards the Technical, and many skaters are not able to achieve those requisite Quads which fill the threads of forums.there has become a sort of Quad Club with 4 or 5 members. Since there are only 3 places on the podium, a quad is necessary to attain one of those positions. No need to worry about any other tricks or performance.

What remains are some of the best figure skaters who struggle with the Quad. A lucky hit might do it. But i doubt it, and I think 25 contestants could be eliminated after the SP. JMO

(btw, the Men's Division as a whole, imo, has improved over the years and we no longer see those splatfests as we used to.)

Joe

Joesitz said:

Since there are only 3 places on the podium, a quad is necessary to attain one of those positions. No need to worry about any other tricks or performance.
Joe

Click to expand...

Maybe a quad is necessary for the gold medal but silver and bronze can be won without a quad, as Buttle, Lysachek have shown.
And yes, the skaters need to worry about other tricks or performance, otherwise Goebel would have been a multiple world champion judging by the number of quads he used to land.