Is A Quad Really Necessary for the Men?

Joesitz said:

The other points in your post are subjective to the eye of the beholder. They really can't be quantified. So after it is all over you can look at the protocols and agree with the subjectivity of the judges PCS scores as if they were inspired by a Supreme Being.

He without opinion can throw the first stone. Levels schmevels.

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You make it sound like a character flaw if I don't have a strong opinion about whether Oda skated better than Weir.

It's all good. I just like the skating.

Men rule.

Sorry for the triple post, LOL, but I just wanted to point out one thing. This thread on men's technical elements has 101 posts. The corresponding thread for ladies and the triple-triple only has 22.

So at least on Golden Skate, the men's discipline is almost five times as intriguing as the ladies.

It is hard for me personally to evaluate Weir's scores with any relevance to the quad/no quad thing. Although I am not a fan, I enjoy some aspects of his skating. However he has lost status and judges respect gradualy over the last couple years, as he has failed to make his mark on the big stage, and as he advances in age skaters his age and younger are emerging all the time and crowding him out. At U.S Nationals even Lysacek beat him on the PC mark in the short program when neither did a quad, so I dont think the quad is a big factor in his PCS. I think the judges see him as a skater on the way down, and even out of the mix a bit at the moment.

He will have to string together some good competitions in a row to see his scores in various areas, including PCS rise again, regardless what jumps he does. He can do it, but he has an uphill battle, and he must start next season right out of the gate IMHO.

Mathman said:

You make it sound like a character flaw if I don't have a strong opinion about whether Oda skated better than Weir.

It's all good. I just like the skating.

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I'm not naming names. I'm just trying to point out that many arm chair judges like to wait until the protocols are up before they form an opinion. Others can watch a skate and have an opinion right then and there.

I do think Johnny has lost some of the judges' respect, unfortunately. I believe they expected him to grow substantially since they first really noticed him in Dortmund. He does well in the US, but his international is either good or not so good, never exceptional. I believe the quad is a must because the members of the Quad Club all have better than average performance to back up the Tech.

I put Johnny in my 'This Is It Club' for the season. So there is hope this season.

Joe

slutskayafan21 said:

It is hard for me personally to evaluate Weir's scores with any relevance to the quad/no quad thing. Although I am not a fan, I enjoy some aspects of his skating. However he has lost status and judges respect gradualy over the last couple years, as he has failed to make his mark on the big stage, and as he advances in age skaters his age and younger are emerging all the time and crowding him out. At U.S Nationals even Lysacek beat him on the PC mark in the short program when neither did a quad, so I dont think the quad is a big factor in his PCS. I think the judges see him as a skater on the way down, and even out of the mix a bit at the moment.

He will have to string together some good competitions in a row to see his scores in various areas, including PCS rise again, regardless what jumps he does. He can do it, but he has an uphill battle, and he must start next season right out of the gate IMHO.

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You are absolutely right, here. I maintain that 2006 Olympics, where Johnny was in 2nd after the SP, was Johnny's alltime big chance. Instead, he finished off the podium, but gained celebrity! The latter has been his downfall. I believe it is nigh impossible for an attention-hungry skater to shut down the celebration and get back to the hard-working business of competitive skating. After the Olympics, Sasha couldn't and Johnny couldn't. Will either resume a really competitive career? I have serious doubts. And I think neither has realized their skating potential, especially Johnny!

slutskayafan21 said:

I think people just want to think that because they think certain skaters like Plushenko or Joubert are overscored on PCS and want to believe that is due to their quads. It isnt, the judges judge like them alot

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But why would the judges like them alot? If it isn't the qauds then what? Could it be the great difference between "live" and "TV"?

amber68 said:

But why would the judges like them alot? If it isn't the qauds then what? Could it be the great difference between "live" and "TV"?

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I know you were not asking me but it there is not always an exact science to why judges like certain skaters alot, and some others not so much. Alot of is just personal feeling, personal opinion. However regarding Joubert and Plushenko here are some things that come to mind that have nothing to do with a quad:

Joubert:

1)He is from France, a political power in the sport, who tends to push 1 or 2 skaters they believe have their best chance.

2)He has a macho look, and it is possible the judges are wanting to push forward a more macho look in the mens event now.

3)He skates with power and command, which probably comes across even more live then on TV and tends to impress you.

Plushenko even more easy to see the reasons:

1)He has a huge resume in this sport, built up from a long time ago. Huge huge reputation factor.

2)He is a Russian. Any Russian skater who is near the top gains a huge push and advantage just by being Russian. Being from a country like France is a political advantage, being from Russia that much moreso.

3)He skates with power and command too. Again this probably comes across even more live then on TV and tends to sway you towards such a skater.

4)By putting their faith in him he makes the judges smart. Unless he is very injured, he has for years gone out with maybe only 1 or 2 truly bad performances in about 6 or 7 years. You can trust him to land the jumps, so by putting him right at the top, the judges look good by putting someone so reliable to land those jumps competition after competition as the top dog.


Plushenko and Joubert dont get their PCS because of quads. At the 2005 Worlds Joubert bombed almost every single jump in his program, and still got PCS the same as Sandhu and Weir, who had decent performances, and higher then Lysacek the eventual bronze medalist. Plushenko's watered down (including no quad) and painfully slow and careful qualifying performance at the 2005 Worlds received the highest PCS of anyone. Quads do not help the Chinese men with their PC scores, which remain extremely low. Quads will not help Weir or Buttle or whomever else with theirs either. The judges give out those scores to the skaters they want to, that is all.

temperboy28 said:

2)He is a Russian. Any Russian skater who is near the top gains a huge push and advantage just by being Russian. Being from a country like France is a political advantage, being from Russia that much moreso.

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What about "being from a country like USA"? Doesn't this bring any advantage?

amber68 said:

What about "being from a country like USA"? Doesn't this bring any advantage?

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Of course it's some advantage, but for better or worse, the US federation isn't perceived as politicking as much on the behalf of its skaters as France and Russia (or even Canada) are (I have no idea if that's true or not, but that seems to be the perception).

The down side is US skaters don't have as much institutional backing. The good side is no particular skater is perceived as being 'federation favorite' as much*. From the outside, the russian skaters favored (and not) by their federation's powers that be seems pretty obvious. Even when they were winning titles, Yagudin and Butyrskaya were never perceived as having as many friends among the Russian decision makers as Plushenko and Slutskaya for example.

Their biggest advantage of US skaters is the ever present knowledge that the US is the biggest market for skating and if no US skaters are doing well it's not going to help the ISU financially.


*Johnny Weir might have a thing or two to say about this, though.

Joesitz said:

I'm not naming names. I'm just trying to point out that many arm chair judges like to wait until the protocols are up before they form an opinion. Others can watch a skate and have an opinion right then and there.

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And neither one of those opinions is any more or less fact, they are merely people's opinions - one made on the spot by instinct and other formed by careful consideration of both the performance and how the judges viewed it. Both types of opinion are very interesting to hear.

Ant

temperboy28 said:

I know you were not asking me

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Erm...i thought it was now common knowledge that you and "slutskayafan" are in fact the same person?

Ant

antmanb said:

Erm...i thought it was now common knowledge that you and "slutskayafan" are in fact the same person?

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Actually, Ant, I am pretty sure now that this is incorrect.

About the politics of the ISU, I am always baffled when I read that the French Federation has a lot of clout.

Where does this come from? AFAIK the French Federation is bankrupt, is riven by internal disputes, and treats its skaters like crap. Why would other federations cower at the thought of getting on their wrong side?

I do not also understand because it is considered to the French federation as a powerful federation.
I believe that the really powerful ones are the American and the Russian.

antmanb said:

and other formed by careful consideration of both the performance and how the judges viewed it.
Ant

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I would hardly describe it as careful. From my view of reading posters' opinions, the posters who wait for the judges protocols feel safe to follow along. Keeps life in the conservative mood.

Joe

Mathman said:

About the politics of the ISU, I am always baffled when I read that the French Federation has a lot of clout.

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Even when they try a LeGougne cheat.

calica said:

I do not also understand because it is considered to the French federation as a powerful federation.
I believe that the really powerful ones are the American and the Russian.

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The American federation is not a major power player, particularly involved, or particularly smart in the political games of figure skating at all. Eastern Europe pretty much have rules in those for awhile. In junior events Americans seem to be good at playing the political game, and thus many of their skaters are mysteriously overmarked in juniors. However in seniors they are no longer up there in that aspect of the sport.

France is a much bigger power player in the political side of the sport, at the senior level, then the U.S. The two dont even come close.

Eddie Lee said:

You are absolutely right, here. I maintain that 2006 Olympics, where Johnny was in 2nd after the SP, was Johnny's alltime big chance. Instead, he finished off the podium, but gained celebrity! The latter has been his downfall. I believe it is nigh impossible for an attention-hungry skater to shut down the celebration and get back to the hard-working business of competitive skating. After the Olympics, Sasha couldn't and Johnny couldn't. Will either resume a really competitive career? I have serious doubts. And I think neither has realized their skating potential, especially Johnny!

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I agree with all you here. The 2006 Olympics was definitely Johnny's big chance. He was not injured like he was at the 2005 Worlds. He was in great position to medal. The top guns, except for Plushenko, didnt even skate that well at the Olympics. Huge opportunity blown to establish himself as a major force in this sport going forward, and of course complete a major achievement that would always be with him the rest of his career, an Olympic medal. His short program was one of his best ever, his free skate though was either poorly layed out by his own whims, or poorly planned out, as far as base values go and killed his chances.

Yes he did seem to be immersed in the celebrity aspect of his non-medal performance. Meanwhile others are moving on around him, and the clock is ticking on his window of opportunity quickly. Maybe getting a new coach is a sign he finally recognizes this. We will see what happens.

Unfortunately, he missed the bus. :sheesh: