Marina Zoueva

cassieandcheetah · Oct 18, 2007

I was just wondering...all the remarks you have made about Morozov made me want to write this...I think Zoueva's work with Gordeeva and Grinkov were absolute masterpieces, every single one of their programs, and it beats me why more skaters don't work with her...I think Jeff Buttle used to, and so do Castile/Okolski....but why not the other elite skaters? And this is not counting Ice dancers, as I'm aware that Zoueva chreographs for Virtue/Moir, Belbin/Agosto and Davis/White, but her work for them is nothing like what she did for Gordeeva and Grinkov...

all that · Oct 18, 2007

cassieandcheetah said:
I was just wondering...all the remarks you have made about Morozov made me want to write this...I think Zoueva's work with Gordeeva and Grinkov were absolute masterpieces, every single one of their programs, and it beats me why more skaters don't work with her...I think Jeff Buttle used to, and so do Castile/Okolski....but why not the other elite skaters? And this is not counting Ice dancers, as I'm aware that Zoueva chreographs for Virtue/Moir, Belbin/Agosto and Davis/White, but her work for them is nothing like what she did for Gordeeva and Grinkov...

Doesn't she already work with the vast number of teams under her and Shpilband? She may be too busy to take on anyone else.

From: https://bladesonice.com/oldnews1.htm

For the two days of my visit Zueva starts at 6 am and Shpilband at 7 am in the morning and both finish at 6 pm at night, almost without break. “But we do not work on Saturdays on Sundays, otherwise this would not be possible,” Zueva said during an ice resurfacing break while preparing a quick coffee. “We never had so much work. There are always less talented couples who absolutely want to train with us… And from 6 pm in the evening, ice hockey occupies both rinks.”

Ptichka · Oct 18, 2007

Yes, Zueva is the choreographer for most of Shpilband's teams. I think there are many reasons why her choreography for G&G was better than for the current teams. For one thing, the choreography generally tended to be more original pre-CoP; while there are still interesting programs out there, there is far less room for choreographer to maneuver; I found very telling a comment Morozov made recently that he could never have that many students under the old judging system because putting together each program took so much longer. In addition, sometimes it just "clicks" between skater(s) and choreographer; that was certainly the case when Marina did programs for G&G.

Joesitz (RIP) · Oct 18, 2007

Ptichka - I thing most fans could not agree with you more regarding the choreography preCoP.

Joe

cassieandcheetah · Oct 18, 2007

Joesitz said:
Ptichka - I thing most fans could not agree with you more regarding the choreography preCoP.

Joe

Thanks for all your comments! It's lamentable what happened to the judging system....but I think what Zoueva did for G & G is just pure magic and I wonder if she can recreate something similar for a singles skater or pair skaters of today. I keep watching both their Olympic long programs on Youtube almost every day......

Tonichelle · Oct 18, 2007

you know, I honestly don't see any more or less original programs now than programs 10-20 years ago. Granted I'm at the mercy of watching tapes and videos but I don't see how it's that drastically different... there were just as many lame/boring programs then (that are mechanical and predictable) as there are now...

As for Marina... didn't she say that after Sergei died a part of her creativity died. That he got her inside and out and that's why the programs were what they were? She took a serious investment-emotionally as well as creatively-in G&G... and who's to say she's ever recovered/looked at choreography the same way since then...

You see it in a lot of choreographers, they make incredible programs for a certain skater (I'm thinking someone like Sarah Kawahara for Scott Hamilton) and then other skaters they have good programs but they don't have that extra something that seems to come with a choreographer and a skater truly click and get each other in every way...

cassieandcheetah · Oct 18, 2007

Tonichelle said:
you know, I honestly don't see any more or less original programs now than programs 10-20 years ago. Granted I'm at the mercy of watching tapes and videos but I don't see how it's that drastically different... there were just as many lame/boring programs then (that are mechanical and predictable) as there are now...

As for Marina... didn't she say that after Sergei died a part of her creativity died. That he got her inside and out and that's why the programs were what they were? She took a serious investment-emotionally as well as creatively-in G&G... and who's to say she's ever recovered/looked at choreography the same way since then...

You see it in a lot of choreographers, they make incredible programs for a certain skater (I'm thinking someone like Sarah Kawahara for Scott Hamilton) and then other skaters they have good programs but they don't have that extra something that seems to come with a choreographer and a skater truly click and get each other in every way...

I agree....yes, I guess I'm not the one to say she should have recovered from his death and should be producing the same calibre of work for other skaters as she did for Sergei and Katia...but just to show you the difference between the days of yore and now, just take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yL8DBvZKbc,

and then compare it to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpkSxNuJxMw&mode=related&search=.

that 1987 program was simply amazing, so much footwork, and yet every step just made sense in the scheme of the whole....but I guess given that the pairs now have to do a throw and a triple jump, it might be too taxing to do a program like this.

all that · Oct 18, 2007

Ptichka said:
In addition, sometimes it just "clicks" between skater(s) and choreographer; that was certainly the case when Marina did programs for G&G.

I agree. If you've read My Sergei (and if you're watching G&G youtube clips nearly every day, you probably have

), you'll remember Katia saying that Marina and Sergei heard music exactly the same way. That's pretty rare...but obviously quite nice when it happens.

cassieandcheetah · Oct 18, 2007

all that said:
I agree. If you've read My Sergei (and if you're watching G&G youtube clips nearly every day, you probably have ), you'll remember Katia saying that Marina and Sergei heard music exactly the same way. That's pretty rare...but obviously quite nice when it happens.

Yes I have, many times!

I even dowloaded the video on my laptop!

Tonichelle · Oct 18, 2007

cassieandcheetah said:
I agree....yes, I guess I'm not the one to say she should have recovered from his death and should be producing the same calibre of work for other skaters as she did for Sergei and Katia...but just to show you the difference between the days of yore and now, just take a look at this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yL8DBvZKbc,

and then compare it to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpkSxNuJxMw&mode=related&search=.

that 1987 program was simply amazing, so much footwork, and yet every step just made sense in the scheme of the whole....but I guess given that the pairs now have to do a throw and a triple jump, it might be too taxing to do a program like this.

you cannot compare just one program to the other... some skaters just never have that 'whole package' before or after CoP...

we're stilly comparing artistry when you just can't do that. One man's art makes another go 'huh?'

callalily · Oct 18, 2007

Although Shpilband is credited as the choreographer, I've wondered about Marina's involvement with V&M's Valse Triste program. It seems very much like something Marina might have created for G&G, if they were dancers. Just beautiful.

all that · Oct 18, 2007

callalily said:
Although Shpilband is credited as the choreographer, I've wondered about Marina's involvement with V&M's Valse Triste program. It seems very much like something Marina might have created for G&G, if they were dancers. Just beautiful.

Well, Marina and Igor work as a team. I think Igor may be the choreographer (like what moves would work best under CoP), while Marina may be the one who works on expression, flow, etc.

Going back to Marina and G&G -- we can't forget that a big reason why G&G's choreography looked so good is because of G&G themselves. G&G were fantastically good skaters, and so they could fully realize Marina's vision (really, which other pair could skate a program like "Vocalise"?). A choreographer has to work with a skater's limitations, but when the skater has very few limitations, the choreographer has more freedom to really create.

Just had to throw this in since it is one of my favorite G&G SP's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rotgcuH0KIg&NR=1

Big Deal · Oct 19, 2007

It was almost unfair to put together the tapes og G&G and TT&MM.

Even if the second couple was good, itt looks like artists vs. road-workers

SkatingFan94 · Oct 19, 2007

I agree with the poster who said one of the reasons Marina's choreography was so good was because of G&G themselves and the pure talent they had but if you compare G&G's Zueva programs to their Tarasova programs (or any other of the handful of choreographers they worked with) it is clear that Zueva's programs are superior. Part of this could be because Zueva was G&Gs first choreographer when they were children and they grew up with her artistic influence on their skating. Life and skating merged not just for G&G but for Zueva as well, they were like family and I don't think we will ever see another bond quite like theirs. However, If you look at the program that I believe she choreographed for her son Fedor at "Celebration of a Life" it has similar qualities. What a wonderful time the '80s and '90s were in skating. I think it was a unique period in Zueva's life as well.
I also wish that more skaters would use Zueva.

cassieandcheetah · Oct 19, 2007

I also wish that more skaters would use Zueva.[/QUOTE]

Yes, you're absolutely right! But like someone else said, maybe she's too busy because she has to work with the ice dancers with Igor....But if Morozov can do it so can she!

Oh, and I agree that their programs with Marina were by far the best in their career, but I have to say I also loved their "Reverie" exhibition program (choreographed by Michael Seibert), and also their Nutcracker one. I think Marina actually might have done the Nutcracker one but do let me know if I'm wrong.

valenc · Oct 19, 2007

No, Nutcracker was begun by Toller Cranston and finished by Ellen Burka. Marina didn't choreograph for G&G between 1990 (after they switched to TAT and turned pro) and 1993 (when they asked her to prepare their Olympic programs).

The G&G Corner recently posted scans of "Skate Talk" where Marina does talk about her personal involvement with G&G:

http://www.gg-corner.de/?p=846

I started to work with Katia and Sergei in 1982, when Katia was 11 and Sergei 15. I did their choreography. I just did their program. I can't tell now, but they were so looking good and they were very coachable. It was very easy to work with them and I would enjoy it a lot....I never saw so pretty, the two of them, so talented.

After her baby they came to me again and they decided to go back [to Olympic skating]. I had a lot for them, the music and design, because in my mind and my brain I saved everything for them.

I think if she [Katia] wants to skate, she should skate. I was sure she can be a good singles skater, too. I know even before - I can make a right program for her for sure. I was not scared. Sometimes when you start with somebody, you think it will be good or not. But with Katia, no. I was sure it will be good and well done.

all that · Oct 19, 2007

valenc said:
No, Nutcracker was begun by Toller Cranston and finished by Ellen Burka. Marina didn't choreograph for G&G between 1990 (after they switched to TAT and turned pro) and 1993 (when they asked her to prepare their Olympic programs).

The G&G Corner recently posted scans of "Skate Talk" where Marina does talk about her personal involvement with G&G:

http://www.gg-corner.de/?p=846

You're right, Marina didn't choreograph "Nutcracker" -- but she did change the choreography a bit. You'll remember that G&G competed with Nutcracker two years in a row (I think 1991 and 1992) -- the first year, they used the program choreographed by Toller and Ellen. The second year, they went to Marina who played with the choreography to make it "a little fresher". So it depends on which year you're looking at.

valenc · Oct 20, 2007

all that said:
You're right, Marina didn't choreograph "Nutcracker" -- but she did change the choreography a bit. You'll remember that G&G competed with Nutcracker two years in a row (I think 1991 and 1992) -- the first year, they used the program choreographed by Toller and Ellen. The second year, they went to Marina who played with the choreography to make it "a little fresher". So it depends on which year you're looking at.

It also depends on what you mean by "changed the choreography a bit". I haven't seen Nutcracker in a while, but IIRC, the program remained essentially the same with a few changes (hand positions, arm extensions, etc.) in 1992. While I liked the tweaks Marina put in, they were at the end of the day still just tweaks to me. The biggest change was technical, switching from a throw triple sal to a throw double axel, but that's not really choreography to me.

Tonichelle · Oct 20, 2007

cassieandcheetah said:
....But if Morozov can do it so can she!

um, somehow I don't think she enjoys giving the same program to fifty skaters... each of her programs are unique to that skater/team... not so much with Morosov. It's like he uses the same step sequence for everyone and chooses from 5 pieces of music.... :laugh:

Yes, I'm exaggerating, but there's a reason you for sure know it's a morosov piece without looking it up.

ks777 · Oct 20, 2007

I thought she choreographed most of Yukari Nakano's programs.

Marina Zoueva

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