Is there any argument for having certain countries send more than 3...?

Jasper · Nov 1, 2007

Is there any argument for having certain countries send more than 3...?

...skaters to Worlds/Olympics? I attended Skate America this past weekend and couldn't help but feel sorry for skaters from Japan like Nanri of the men's and Mai Asada of the ladies' - wonderful skaters in their own right who are among the very best in the world but will never go to Worlds and never get a chance to represent their country on that big a stage. Japan is just so so deep right now in both mens and ladies disciplines. Suguri missed out on Worlds last year. USA is facing the same problem, and it looks like this season may be the last chance for Czisny, Liang, etc. and the last time for Hughes to go to Worlds before Zhang and Nagasu become eligible.

I know this isn't a new problem. At different times in skating history, certain nations, whether the US, Japan, Russia, etc. have had so many good skaters and it's inevitable that a few will be screwed. So is there any way to change the rule? Any way to look at the quality of a nation's competitors and give them one extra slot for a Worlds or Olympics? For instance, if you averaged a nation's point totals, or took the median number, or looked at their placements throughout the international season?

Or is 3 per nation the only fair way to do it? It just doesn't sit right with me to see mediocre skaters from small nations like Tugba Karademir from Turkey (and I mean no disrespect to Tugba, she's great but just the first name I thought of) get to go the Olympics while skaters like Nakano and Oda had to stay home in 2006.

chuckm · Nov 2, 2007

Mai Asada's total score at Skate America wouldn't even guarantee a medal at a JGP event, and she scored just 1.23 points more than Tugba Karademir. Why is Mai more deserving of going to Worlds than Tugba?

Mai comes from a federation with lots of money, and Japan is bursting with talent far greater than hers. IMO, Mai gets her GP assignments because she is riding on her sister's coattails. Tugba comes from a poor federation and she has had to make many sacrifices to make it to Worlds.

Sorry, but I think the maximum of 3 skaters per federation is fair.

Tonichelle · Nov 2, 2007

I agree it's very fair... if they didn't some countries would totally dominate the sport even more so than they do now... :lol:

indicatoto101 · Nov 2, 2007

chuckm said:
\Why is Mai more deserving of going to Worlds than Tugba?
.

She doesn't. And I don't think the OP had Mai in mind. Why is Fumie or Nakano less deserving of a World's spot than Tugba?

chuckm · Nov 2, 2007

If skaters aren't the top competitors in their own country, they don't get to go to Worlds. That's the way it is for every country. Some countries have more talent than others, and some talented skaters are going to be left at home.

Lumi · Nov 2, 2007

I think it would be good if 3-6 skaters could be picked for worlds despite their nationality. For example, if you were not in top 3 in Natonals, you could still go to Worlds if you made the GPF for example. Or had top 10 score in some copetition during the season.

Mathman · Nov 2, 2007

I don't know why three is the magic number, rather than, say, two or four.

But the way the ISU (and the IOC, too, for that matter) is structured, no individual skater is a memeber of the ISU and no individual skater, however talented and accopmplished, is ever invited to Worlds or to the Olympics.

That's because the members of the ISU are the national federations. So each federation is invited to send its champion.

I assume that the reason some federations are allowed to send one or two extra is exactly what is being discussed on this tread -- some fedeartions are so brimming with talent that they have more than one deserving contender.

I don't know when the current rule came in. At 1906 worlds (Munich) there were four Germans. In 1923 (Vienna), 1924, 1927, and 1928 there were four Austrians, and in 1925 (Vienna) there were five. The 1930 world championship in New York had four Americans. Maybe back then it was whoever could make the trip.

sillylionlove · Nov 2, 2007

I agree that 3 is fair. This way it gives a chance to skaters from other countries. I mean if you were to give unlimited spots to countries, the worlds would be the USA vs. Japan and to me that is very, very boring. I enjoy watching skaters from other countries. Just because they dont' come from a strong federation doesn't mean that they should not get a chance to compete.

Mafke · Nov 2, 2007

I disagree that the current system does any favors at all for skaters from smaller federations.
I'd suggest a restructuring so that the smaller federations got a _lot_ more experience at GP events but couldn't necessarily send skaters to worlds.

What good does it do Nonskaterstan to send their champion to worlds if said champion doesn't make it to the LP?

It's at the GP and second tier events that countries can build up their programs, not by sending one skater to one event a year (no matter how prestigious that event is).

The world championships should be about the 24 or so best skaters, perhaps invitations to world by ISU ranking?

Medusa · Nov 2, 2007

I never really thought about it, but you have a good point here. It's a bit unfair... Why not let the best, really the best, compete against each other? For example, every year there is a German girl skating at Worlds and Euros - and they never end up better than 20th - but they are a member of ISU so they get to send someone, though there are better skaters in USA and Japan who never get a chance. It would be good if they chose the competitors like they choose tennis players for the Grand Slams.

JonnyCoop · Nov 2, 2007

Well, at least as far as the Olys are concerned, the IOC only allows a maximum of three in ANY sport -- skating, swimming, skiing, shooting, etc. (Tho it would be more accurate in the case of skiing to say three per EVENT....)

attyfan · Nov 2, 2007

If "talent rich" countries, such as US and Japan (in the singles events) get to send unlimited skaters to Worlds, how will a skater such as Yu-Na Kim -- the first from a specific country -- ever "break" into the big time?

sillylionlove · Nov 2, 2007

That's a very good point attyfan!!

bekalc · Nov 2, 2007

attyfan said:
If "talent rich" countries, such as US and Japan (in the singles events) get to send unlimited skaters to Worlds, how will a skater such as Yu-Na Kim -- the first from a specific country -- ever "break" into the big time?

I totally agree with this. As a child, i doubt Yu-na ever really thought she'd win a world medal...I doubt she knew how good she really was, and so winning a world medal was way behind comprehension..But going to Worlds and the Olympics wasn't unrealistic for.

What if not having this kind of hope would discourage people like Yu-na Kim...

I think it's fair to point out that skaters from skating rich countries like the United States and Japan (and at one time Russia) have a lot of opportunities and advantages that other skaters do not have.. I think it evens out.

chuckm · Nov 2, 2007

The JGP is a good place for young skaters to get the benefit of international competition. All the skaters get to skate both SP and FS. Singles can skate in the JGP until they are 19 as of July 1st, and Pairs and Ice Dance, until the lady is 19 as of July 1. Because the alllotment of spots is based on how high the federations' skaters place at Junior Worlds the previous year, the poorer federations may not get as many spots as the bigger ones, but in many cases the poorer federations don't have as many skaters, either. The JGPF has helped both Finland and Estonia develop their young skaters.

JGP host countries are allowed to have 3 skaters in each discipline at their event, and there are no set host nations, as in the GP---many of the smaller federations have been hosts.

Yu-Na Kim is a perfect example of a skater from a small federation making her way into the GP and Worlds by honing her skills in the JGP.

slutskayafan21 · Nov 2, 2007

chuckm said:
IMO, Mai gets her GP assignments because she is riding on her sister's coattails.

Ouch, that was blunt.

Fozzie Bear · Nov 2, 2007

Part of me thinks the 3 skaters max rule is very fair. The other part of me wishes team Russia had given one of their spots to Fumie last season.

Maybe they should keep the rule, but also qualify the skaters who post top 10 scores during the season. This way the smaller countries will still be represented, but the best skaters won't be left out if they face stiff competition at their qualifying events. Then comps like 4CC may get more recognition and attendance, because it could serve as a last chance for skaters to crack the top 10.

bekalc · Nov 2, 2007

I like the idea of the top 10 scoring rule. But I definetly think it's important to allow other nations to bring their skaters, even if they aren't so great... I think that Yu-na Kim is a prime example, of why this is important.

Mathman · Nov 2, 2007

To emphasize again that under the current rules it's all about the national federation and has nothing to do with the skaters...

A national federation (not a skater) qualifies for two or three spots when their skaters do well at last years worlds. However, next year the federations don't have to send the skaters who won the spots, they can fill those spots with anyone they choose.

I don't think the ISU would ever put in a "top ten" rule, because that would put some small part of control of the sport into the hands of the athletes, instead of reserving all power to the federation chiefs.

Fozzie Bear · Nov 2, 2007

And that stinks, because the federations are supposed to serve the skaters.

Is there any argument for having certain countries send more than 3...?

Jasper

chuckm

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

indicatoto101

chuckm

Lumi

Mathman

sillylionlove

Mafke

Medusa

JonnyCoop

attyfan

Custom Title

sillylionlove

bekalc

chuckm

slutskayafan21

Match Penalty

Fozzie Bear

bekalc

Mathman

Fozzie Bear

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