Are all jumps both pre-rotated and under-rotated?

Mathman · Nov 3, 2007

It seems to be the general consensus among skaters and coaches that proper technique on edge jumps always features a pre-rotation on the ice.

On another thread, Gold Medalist asserted that this is true of toe jumps, too.

At the other end, watching in slow motion it looks to me that every jump landing is short a little and that the full rotation is always completed on the ice.

To me (a non-skater), this makes sense. You are rotating on the ice before and during the take-off and also during and after the landing.

The only exception might be the Lutz, with it's straight line entry. Maybe that is why so many skaters flutz. That last second switch over to the inside edge allows them to pre-rotate the jump. (?)

gio · Nov 3, 2007

I think you are right! But the pre-rotations are less than 1/4 turn, right???

chuckm · Nov 3, 2007

In some cases, skaters finish the rotation on the ice after the jump is landed. Emily Hughes did that at Skate America with her lutz and flip, and her sister Sarah did the same thing.

mizu_iro · Nov 3, 2007

All jumps may be pre-rotated, but the underrotated part is a bit more doubtful...even during the Men's Short most of the skaters who did 3loops finished the rotation in the air and opened up before landing. That is definitely not underroration.

feraina · Nov 3, 2007

Mathman said:
It seems to be the general consensus among skaters and coaches that proper technique on edge jumps always features a pre-rotation on the ice.
On another thread, Gold Medalist asserted that this is true of toe jumps, too.

Well, averaging across my coaches' opinions, the salchow and loop both have almost a half turn of pre-rotation, the toe loop has maybe 3/8, and the flip and lutz probably should have minimal pre-rotation.

There's a difference between pre-rotating your upperbody, and your blades. What makes flip & lutz harder is that you can't pre-rotate your blades, and what makes lutz harder than flip is that you can't even pre-rotate your body. And although loop has pre-rotation in both body and blades, it's hard to generate that much height/distance/rotation having nothing to vault off of. The salchow is easier than loop because although it's an edge jump, you'll swing your free leg through, and that helps with height/distance/rotation.

As for the landing, you should really ideally have minimal on-ice rotation. However, when learning new jumps, skaters often open up early (it's scary to add a rotation!), and coaches teach them to finish off the rotation on the ice, which has the benefit of preventing them from opening up early, getting the feeling for having that many rotations for that particular jump, and having their weight centered on the right part of their landing blade to the end (if you're not centered properly then you will fall or step out on your landing). The hope is that eventually you'll get enough height on your jump, and then the jump would be just right. But if you don't skate with enough speed/power, or take off with poor technique, then maybe you'll never manage to fully rotate those jumps.

mskater93 · Nov 4, 2007

Actually, the Salchow and loop both take off from the toe pick and should have a small check mark for that toe pick at the end of the take off edge. My 2S looks like that and I am working to wait long enough on the 2Lo take off to get the consistent push up off the toe and consistent check mark. The Sal takes off *almost* forward and the loop takes off between 1/4 pre-turned and 1/2 pre-turned. The toe loop should also have the check mark on the take off from the pick and it pre-rotates ~ 1/4. The flip and Lutz should look like the loop.

On the landing, if you actually come down fully backwards, you are most likely to fall on your backside. Most "clean" multi-rotational jumps are ~ 1/8 cheated because you have to stop your rotational momentum.

Tinymavy15 · Nov 4, 2007

i was taught to take off for my 2 salchow, toe loop and loop with a little turn on purpose. alll my coaches said that this pre- roatation is nessicary.

I think that the judges are being WAY to picky this year.

Mathman · Nov 4, 2007

mizu_iro said:
All jumps may be pre-rotated, but the underrotated part is a bit more doubtful...even during the Men's Short most of the skaters who did 3loops finished the rotation in the air and opened up before landing. That is definitely not underroration.

That really looks cool when it happens. Some of the throw jumps in recent pairs competitions I noticed were like that -- huge air under the lady so she can check most of the rotation by opening up in the air.

The other time I see it is when men attempt a quad but change their mind in mid-jump and check off with a triple.

I hardly ever see a lady get that much height and rotation in the air.

Tinymavy15 · Nov 4, 2007

Mathman said:
That really looks cool when it happens. Some of the throw jumps in recent pairs competitions I noticed were like that -- huge air under the lady so she can check most of the rotation by opening up in the air.

The other time I see it is when men attempt a quad but change their mind in mid-jump and check off with a triple.

I hardly ever see a lady get that much height and rotation in the air.

Yeah, I love when Brain Joubert does his triple flip, opens up in the air and lands as neat and strong as if it were a double.

If you look at a few of the ladies double axels they are like that. Sasha had a beautiful double axel, especilly in the early days. It was HUGE.

chuckm · Nov 4, 2007

But Brian Joubert's FLIP is really a lip. It may look good in the air, but he takes off using the wrong edge.

mizu_iro · Nov 4, 2007

Tinymavy15 said:
Yeah, I love when Brain Joubert does his triple flip, opens up in the air and lands as neat and strong as if it were a double.

If you look at a few of the ladies double axels they are like that. Sasha had a beautiful double axel, especilly in the early days. It was HUGE.

Midori Ito's 3T-3T :love:

blue dog · Nov 4, 2007

there were women who had beautiful jumps that had minimal prerotation or such underrotation that they completed their jump on the ice.

Look at:

Josee's double axel:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PhyyMLi9TlY

Tanja Szewczenko's triple lutz:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dj9q7UOqwQ8

Katarina's triple toe:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RjB17Cn_Hd8

Irina's triple loop:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8iQMMSMn78Q

Maria's triple flip:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zYvVzNZNE4E

Michelle's triple salchow (her triple loop, the hardest jump for her, was also not prerotated when she competed it properly):

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QWQSoIEAxns

Tonia's triple axel:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IVpKZMOFJec
http://youtube.com/watch?v=8JM5Ed3ardM

here's one with horrible underrotation (completed on the ice):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nudusAq68mw

mizu_iro · Nov 5, 2007

Yu-Na also gets the same kind of quality on her flip sometimes...she doesn't always get the same kind of airiness, but she has minimal pre/underrotation as well.

GoldMedalist · Nov 5, 2007

Mathman said:
It seems to be the general consensus among skaters and coaches that proper technique on edge jumps always features a pre-rotation on the ice.

On another thread, Gold Medalist asserted that this is true of toe jumps, too.

blue dog said:
there were women who had beautiful jumps that had minimal prerotation or such underrotation that they completed their jump on the ice.

Katarina's triple toe:

Maria's triple flip:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zYvVzNZNE4E

Maria's Flip and Katarina's toeloop were a half-turn pre-rotated on the toepick.

So, standing by what I said. A half-turn pre-rotation and a quarter-turn underrotation is the normal allowable amount for ANY jump. The base amount of rotation for a Triple is 2.25 turns and for a Triple Axel, 2.75 turns.

mizu_iro · Nov 5, 2007

GoldMedalist said:
Maria's Flip and Katarina's toeloop were a half-turn pre-rotated on the toepick.

So, standing by what I said. A half-turn pre-rotation and a quarter-turn underrotation is the normal allowable amount for ANY jump. The base amount of rotation for a Triple is 2.25 turns and for a Triple Axel, 2.75 turns.

But Maria's lutz didn't have that much prerotation.
I guess what you're saying is a half-turn prerotation and quarter-turn underrotation are allowable. But there are skaters who both pre-rotate and underrotate less than your standards, at least on certain jumps.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 5, 2007

If one bisects a circle or an oval from N to S to extend the diameter outside the circle or oval, I believe a skater can begin to prepare for a jump at the apex N and travel to apex S and then take off. If a skater executes 3 rotations in the air and lands on Apex S, and flows out of the circle or oval figure, the skaters has competed a triple jump without cheating.

I'm sure no one undstands what I am saying but it's what I think.

Joe

icestar · Nov 7, 2007

rotation

All the jumps are pre-rotated 1/2 a turn on the take-off, take a look at a super slow motion of any of the backward take-off jumps and stop it at the moment the blade leaves the ice. It will be 1/2 a turn. To land a jump on a smooth outside edge jumps are under-rotated 45 degrees. There was an article in one of the skating mags that analyzed the quad toes of many of the US men with the use of sensors and a computer; the number of rotations "in the air" was measured at 3.1 rotations. They were doing 190 degrees+ on take-off and almost 90degrees on the landing. And yes, that would be a "clean" jump.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 7, 2007

I still feel wherever one takes off from the ice, then rotates whatever rotations, and lands on the same spot as take off, the jump is completed without cheating.

There are rules to permit landings to be 15 degrees short, I believe, but in essence it is not really a completed jump.

I don't believe there are rules for prerotation.

Joe

Are all jumps both pre-rotated and under-rotated?

Mathman

gio

chuckm

mizu_iro

feraina

mskater93

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

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Sinnerman for the win

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mizu_iro

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icestar

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