Is USFS quietly hurting Zhang?

Tinymavy15 · Nov 9, 2007

i think that they are not holding her back, rather they are pushing her, becasue they know that she is just what the sport and the country needs. With sasha's gold non-existant and michelle more or less retired, the U.S needs a new girl to root for. Kimmie, while world champs dosen't have "it" that will bring crowds to see her. USFSA sees the potentail of world/olympic medalist or even champion in little zhang. and they want all the benifits.

attyfan · Nov 9, 2007

krenseby said:
But not the international judges. International judges don't want to see her beat established ladies because she's not old enough to go to Worlds and because she is the new kid on the block.

Somehow, figure skating judges are confused about their job. They are there only to judge the skaters' performance, but they are confused enough to think that what their job description involves is ENDORSING skaters and VOUCHING for their talent.

So, these judges wait until a skater has proved themselves in several competitions on the senior level before giving them fair scores. They hold them down initially because they fear "endorsing" these newcomers prematurely.

So what else is new? Did you really expect CoP to change anything?

Seriously, that Mao Asada was too young for Olys didn't stop her winning GP events -- and the GPF. I think it is more likely that Zhang's age will work against her at Nats than anything else. After all, as Mao proved, there is no conflict in a skater too young for Worlds doing well at a GP -- but I don't think federations want to be in a position where the Nat champ isn't going to Worlds.

krenseby · Nov 9, 2007

attyfan said:
So what else is new? Did you really expect CoP to change anything?

Seriously, that Mao Asada was too young for Olys didn't stop her winning GP events -- and the GPF. I think it is more likely that Zhang's age will work against her at Nats than anything else. After all, as Mao proved, there is no conflict in a skater too young for Worlds doing well at a GP -- but I don't think federations want to be in a position where the Nat champ isn't going to Worlds.

Actually, I don't why the judges seemed to get on board with Mao much quickly than with Caroline. I think maybe it was due to the fact that the 2006 Olympics would mean the retirement of a lot of established skaters so that made the judges look for the stars of the next generation and reward them appropriately.

However, now that Kim, Asada, Meissner, and Ando have achieved their own "star status," the judges (or perhaps the tech callers) want to hold these up and protect them against newcomers.

Let me remind you that Sasha for example would get high GOE marks during her Olympic LP. Now, if Caroline were more "established", I think she would be getting those too.

fenway · Nov 9, 2007

gsrossano said:
On the contrary, I think she is being pushed forward in preference to the other Juniors who were/are her contemporaries.

Agreed. That's not to say I think their treatment of her is unfair or a sign of favoritism. I simply think they're pushing her big time. I think they view her as another great big hope amongst US female skaters. The USFSA does tend to push certain skaters ahead or others. Caroline seems to be their latest choice. Doesn't really bother me one way or another.

bekalc · Nov 9, 2007

I don't know...I think Mao was better than Zhang at 14. I mean Mao I think is overhyped too. But the girl's junior world skate was frankly amazing she got like something 119 points (Ten more than Zhang got and 3 more than Yu-na got).

I think in general the triple axel is more WOW. And Mao's basic skating is better too...

As for Yu-na, Yu-na was two years older than Zhang was. And once again she really was more mature, and a better basic skater. But even with Yu-na, she didn't necessarily get high PCS's immediately. At Skate Canada she only got a 62 something for her program, and in France, in the short program the judges gave Miki higher PC scores than Yu-na in the short. Yes, Miki. However , Yu-na came on top over Miki in the short (even with Miki's higher base value) because of the GOE. Yu-na gets huge GOE on her jumps and generally decent GOE, on everything else.. It really wasn't the PCS that were putting Yu-na over the top. It wasn't until after the Grand Prix Final, when Yu-na started getting really high PCS.

As for Sasha getting nice GOE's. Well, when Sasha landed the jumps (and except for the flutz) Sasha's jumps could be quite nice. IfI recall correctly she did get pretty good height.

krenseby · Nov 9, 2007

bekalc said:
I don't know...I think Mao was better than Zhang at 14. I mean Mao I think is overhyped too. But the girl's junior world skate was frankly amazing she got like something 119 points (Ten more than Zhang got and 3 more than Yu-na got).

I think in general the triple axel is more WOW. And Mao's basic skating is better too...

As for Yu-na, Yu-na was two years older than Zhang was. And once again she really was more mature, and a better basic skater. But even with Yu-na, she didn't necessarily get high PCS's immediately. At Skate Canada she only got a 62 something for her program, and in France, in the short program the judges gave Miki higher PC scores than Yu-na in the short. Yes, Miki. However , Yu-na came on top over Miki in the short (even with Miki's higher base value) because of the GOE. Yu-na gets huge GOE on her jumps and generally decent GOE, on everything else.. It really wasn't the PCS that were putting Yu-na over the top. It wasn't until after the Grand Prix Final, when Yu-na started getting really high PCS.

As for Sasha getting nice GOE's. Well, when Sasha landed the jumps (and except for the flutz) Sasha's jumps could be quite nice. IfI recall correctly she did get pretty good height.

See, even Yuna was held back in her scores a bit in her first year as a senior skater. I think, if Caroline Zhang keeps on skating really well, her PCS scores will shoot up at the end of the season.

KwanFan1212 · Nov 9, 2007

I know you all want to talk about all the results from the last two GP competitions but PLEASE remember that Skate Canada and Cup of China have NOT aired in the United States yet and should not be discussed in this forum. I've read a few scores and other little tidbits from those two competitions in this thread tonight. We're trying very hard to keep spoilers out of this forum because it's something that everyone wanted us to do during the skating season. Please keep this in mind before you post something here out of respect for the posters who want to stay unspoiled. Thanks a bunch everyone!

chuckm · Nov 9, 2007

Someone stated that Tara Lipinski had fixed her flutz. She didn't fix it at all, but in the 6.0 days, the judges gave lower technical scores in the SP only, and didn't always do that if the skater gave a bravura performance. They pretty much ignored flutzing in the FS.

slutskayafan21 · Nov 9, 2007

chuckm said:
Someone stated that Tara Lipinski had fixed her flutz. She didn't fix it at all, but in the 6.0 days, the judges gave lower technical scores in the SP only, and didn't always do that if the skater gave a bravura performance. They pretty much ignored flutzing in the FS.

It is interesting it went that way later on. At the 1996 World juniors the judges apparently advised the Lipinski "camp" to not attempt the triple lutz in the short since she would probably be hammered for the blatant flutz. She instead replaced it with a triple loop combo, and got stuck in 7th after the short (a Russian girl a few months younger then her ended up 2nd in the short, and 3rd overall, although she never went anywhere in seniors). That infuriated Pat Lipinski, and it is where she and the coach Jeff DiGregorio had the blowout, and that was the end of him. It was his decision to only do the triple loop combo in the short at the advise of a couple of judges, and Pat then blamed Tara coming that far down on that decision to do the easier combo.

Somewhere along the line I guess she gained the status that the flutz became a bit issue all of the sudden.

flying camel · Nov 9, 2007

Ashley Wagner seems to be a very good competitor. She plus Kimmie should do okay at worlds. Emily looks like she will probably make the team again. You just can't seem to count on Alissa or Bebe to put a good Sp & Lp together. Are there any other possibilities?

sorcerer · Nov 10, 2007

A little off the topic, but I found out that most likely Zhang has the chance of going to the GP Final ONLY WHEN MIKI WINS the NHK!
Please see the competition area.

THOSE WHO'D LOVE TO SEE ZHANG IN TORINO, PLEASE PRAY FOR ANDO'S NHK WIN!!

Tonichelle · Nov 10, 2007

PLEASE FOLLOW SPOILER GUIDELINES. I feel like I'm a broken record these days!

slutskayafan21 · Nov 10, 2007

flying camel said:
Ashley Wagner seems to be a very good competitor. She plus Kimmie should do okay at worlds. Emily looks like she will probably make the team again. You just can't seem to count on Alissa or Bebe to put a good Sp & Lp together. Are there any other possibilities?

I am not sure Ashley will make it to Worlds. AFAIK Flatt, Nagasu, and Zhang are ineligible. However Hughes, Czisny, Liang, and Wagner will all be fighting for the other 2 spots.

sorcerer · Nov 11, 2007

Tonichelle said:
PLEASE FOLLOW SPOILER GUIDELINES. I feel like I'm a broken record these days!

I 'm sorry, no intent of spoiling.
I thought I followed the guideline, but I support being strict on rules, like the edge call.

Should I delete?

"Spoilers are posts that contain results from competitions and other figure skating events that are scheduled to be televised or broadcasted in the future"

bekalc · Nov 11, 2007

I don't know Sorcer, can I say I don't like praying for one athlete to win over another. It's totally cool to like one skater better than another, and enjoy seeing the skater more...

But well, we really don't know whose more deserving and all of the athletes work really hard to get where their going..

sorcerer · Nov 11, 2007

Yes, I know what you mean and mostly agree.

One thing, hoping every competitor to perform to their very best, which I surely do, doesn't contradict hoping for the competitor having the ability to win make it come true, IMO.

In other words I pray that Miki won't be intimidated by her injury and pain, and that's not wanting other skaters to make mistakes.

(Maybe I'm misusing the English word; to pray is nothing religious in Japan.)

But thanks anyway.

bekalc · Nov 11, 2007

sorcerer said:
Yes, I know what you mean and mostly agree.
One thing, hoping every competitor to perform to their very best, which I surely do, doesn't contradict hoping for the competitor having the ability to win make it come true, IMO.

In other words I pray that Miki won't be intimidated by her injury and pain, and that's not wanting other skaters to make mistakes.

(Maybe I'm misusing the English word; to pray is nothing religious in Japan.)

But thanks anyway.

Oh yeah, I didn't even think about a language difference sorry...Nothing wrong though of course about wanting one person to win over another.

chuckm · Nov 11, 2007

slutskayafan21 said:
I am not sure Ashley will make it to Worlds. AFAIK Flatt, Nagasu, and Zhang are ineligible. However Hughes, Czisny, Liang, and Wagner will all be fighting for the other 2 spots.

Wagner is a MUCH more consistent skater than Czisny or Liang. She has steady competition nerves, unlike Czisny, and she lands most of her jumps, unlike Liang. The same can be said for Chrissy Hughes (who has made it to the JGPF with 2 gold medals). I think Liang and Czisny are about to face a serious challenge from these two at Nationals.

bekalc · Nov 11, 2007

chuckm said:
Wagner is a MUCH more consistent skater than Czisny or Liang. She has steady competition nerves, unlike Czisny, and she lands most of her jumps, unlike Liang. The same can be said for Chrissy Hughes (who has made it to the JGPF with 2 gold medals). I think Liang and Czisny are about to face a serious challenge from these two at Nationals.

Personally, I think Wagner is a skater who the USFSA is not promoting enough. She doesn't have the flash that Caroline has or Mirai has. But well her jumping technique is much better than Caroline Zhang's, and Nagasu has been struggling it seems with rotating her jumps.

I wouldn't be surprised if completely if Wagner turns out to be the more successful skater. (I plan on commenting on this more later on tonight)

Sylvia · Nov 11, 2007

chuckm said:
The same can be said for Chrissy Hughes (who has made it to the JGPF with 2 gold medals). I think Liang and Czisny are about to face a serious challenge from these two at Nationals.

Chrissy Hughes, who will make her senior debut at 2008 U.S. Nationals, has been consistently landing her double axel, triple toe and triple salchow in the JGP this fall; however, this recent interview includes the following statement from her:

Yes, the triple loop is a new element for me this year. I have not been able to practice the [triple] flip and lutz because of my injury. I am just trying to stay healthy and keep my shin from acting up again.

As for the original topic of this thread -- "usfsa quietly hurting caroline zhang" -- I don't think so!

Is USFS quietly hurting Zhang?

Tinymavy15

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