Is Kimmie Meissner underrated?

bekalc said:

Frank Carroll felt that way when Sasha was younger.. He may have not felt that way after several years of watching how Sasha developed as a Senior...Frank might have been good for Sasha, but he might have had the same issues with her that let's say Tarasova had.... I don't think though that Frank was really going to steal Mr Nick's star student.

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Well every coach had issues with Sasha. She ended her career with Nicks whom she had already fired, which just shows she didnt stick it out with any one coach. There was always some kind of problem.

slutskayafan21 said:

Well most of what I was aware of him talking about her was after 2002. From 2000-2002 I was not aware of many of his comments on her. It was from 2003-2006 that I either heard or read most. They were still positive, good comments, but like I said modest and subdued praise, not the way he goes on about someone he really is awed by (and there are quite a few of those for him).

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Well the comments I was mentiong was in 2000 and perhaps around the Olympics. Not after wards... Perhaps because Sasha didn't become what Frank though she could become. The only reason I remember the first statement I mentioned is I remember reading this article about all the new young skaters coming up. And it was before Sasha's debut in Nationals but Nationals was I think that week. And I remember I really liked Naomi Nari Nam, and here was Frank gushing about Sasha Cohen who I had never seen. So that's why I remember Frank making the comment he made.

Well every coach had issues with Sasha. She ended her career with Nicks whom she had already fired, which just shows she didnt stick it out with any one coach. There was always some kind of problem.

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In fairness to Sasha, she had less coaches than most skaters had... Having 3 main coaches in her career isn't exactly a bad thing, and going back to Nicks had to have been humbling in someways...It can take awhile sometimes to figure out what coach works for you.... And well I think some skaters would be better off if they switched coaches: See Kostner, maybe even Meissner.

Everytime I check back this Kimmie's underrate thread, i always found that it is not abt Kimmie, but again back to Sasha.

If somebody fell during the program, same as Sasha.
If somebody was having nerve problem, same as Sasha.
If somebody has potential but yet never have chance to the gold medal, same as Sasha.
Changes coach, same as Sasha.


Poor Sasha, I am so sad everyone is speaking of her in bad terms rather than talking about how much she enlighted the new aspects to this sports. On the other hand, when you speak about Kwan or Slutskaya I believed that no one is gonna bash them like they do on sasha.

All of the bad things I mentioned above about sasha, I still enjoy watching her programs, yes, with flaws, fell, wrong edge, etc. more than SOME other skaters. let's say, back to this thread supposed to be discussed about, Kimmie.

Sasha

Kandidy, you need to read my posts about Sasha. I am doing anything but slamming her. I think she will be remembered as one of the greats.

Slutskayafan21, now that someone else has piped up about Frank Carroll maybe you will believe me. Trust me, the first time he saw her compete, he almoist had an M.I. I have a tape of it at home and it's right on his face. He knew that Michelle had a real fight on her hands in the future. As we all know, she rose to the occasion.

As for spirals, I like Michelle's spirals much better myself, we do agree on that. But my point is this, Sasha could not have done the spirals she did, if she didn't have secure edges. Her extension, while glidding on a blade, was incredible and if it was easy to do, everyone would be doing it. Personally, I didn't love the right angle it created, but I respected the skill she needed to get to that position. It's harder to maintain your balance in that position on a blade.

Peggy and Dick can talk rings around us as far as skating goes. I defer to their expertise and rarely if ever disagree with them. We are armchair skating experts (except for the few of us who skate competitively). Knowledgeable but not experts in the field. They know what it takes to create a postion on the ice and maintain it.

As for the Europeans not agreeing with us about American skaters, who cares? There is always national self interest or continental self interest when you have people competing. It's to be expected and is only natural. Having said that, it sure won't stop me from appreciating a Yu Na Kim or Mao Asada. I think they are great. But I would love to see Caroline Zhang give them a run for their money and Kimmie Meissner for that matter too.

It was well known in the skating community that most coaches (and spectators) were "wowed" by Sasha in the beginning. Frank wasn't an exception, but Sasha showed that she wanted to win in the wrong ways and that turned people off. Skating was beautiful, open mouth and different opinions began to form. I only read that Frank make a comment about her nice pointed toes. Nothing more, nothing less and that was pre Nationals '00 where the diva began to raise her head.:chorus: Was there ever more said than that? I hope Kimmie can also compete with the Japanese ladies. She is the best hope the US has right now. I was hoping for Emily to do something, I think by Nationals Emily just might beat Kimmie.

I will remember Sasha for that first glimpse i had of her during the US National, and again when I watched the mature Sasha in Torino.

I do believe she had exquisite talent but never directed it as a sportsman would. Her competitive career lacked the desire to win. Several times there was gold within reach and she could not bring herself to get it.

She should do very well in SOI while giving the audience those wow spirals.

Joe

Comments

I totally agree that Sasha never had the true sportsman's desire to win in the way I saw it in Michelle, Irina and now Zhang, Kim and Asada. I hate to call it "the killer instinct" but in many ways that's what it is. Michelle had that competitor's look and personal toughness from the word go. So does Zhang. So did Tara Lipinski. Sasha also had family issues going on with the divorce of her parents. That couldn't have been easy. I really believe that a stable home is much more nurturing and supportive for a skater.

bekalc said:

In fairness to Sasha, she had less coaches than most skaters had... Having 3 main coaches in her career isn't exactly a bad thing, and going back to Nicks had to have been humbling in someways...It can take awhile sometimes to figure out what coach works for you.... And well I think some skaters would be better off if they switched coaches: See Kostner, maybe even Meissner.

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IMO, the issue is not the number of coaches , but whether a skater listens to his or her coach or not. Sasha was supposed to be head strong, and wanted her way on the ice. It was kind of cute at 15, when Nicks joked about "she heard what I told her, then she did what she wanted to do on the ice". But there comes a time a skater has to be more serious about listening to his or her coach. When she turned to TT, at the time the reason was her home rink was too crowded. When she parted with Nicks, I believe she had to pay up the rest of the contract. (yeah, having a rich family do give her the luxury.) Then she squandered training opportunities with TT by baking cookies all night, jetting to Paris for shopping trips. She might not have squandered her talents, but definitely by TT, and Robin Wagner reports, Sasha squandered opportunities with her coaches. Interesting you said "what coaches work for you". That is one of the bones TT picked, that (American skaters) have the mind set of what coaches work for them. According to TT, in the Russian tradition, whatever the coaches said is the way to go, and she observed the same with Japanese coahces.

Sasha had the luxury of a wealthy family paying for the best coaches in the world. Her family let her move all the way to Conn (and bought a house there) so she could train with TT. When TT didn't work out, Robin Wagner was so accomodating that initially, Robin commuted 3 hrs one way to go to Conn to coach her. Later Robin let Sasha stay in her home while training her NY. Robin did all this for her firm believe in Sasha (BTW Robin is rich, she does not need the money). Sasha squandered the opportunity with Robin too.

Yes back to Nicks, who was more willing to let Sasha do what she wanted. She received a "gift" at Torino. Calgary was the biggest chance for her to win a major gold, she squandered the opportunity by attending Hollywood parties, while Kimmie hit the ice training everyday. US nationals 07 was a major opportunity for her to defend a gold, and she did not even try.

IMO, her chances for more competitive skating is almost gone. Her team, and fans used to HYPE so much about her potential, the first woman to land a quad sal etc. Sasha fans and team have lowered expectations nowadays. I am sure Sasha will have the potential to do well as a show skater. Sasha still has the flexibility, her spiral is still almost full split, but at the cost of lower her back. Her spins are slower nowadays. I am not sure what it will take to succeed in show skating, But a show skater has to train too, just look at Kristi.

IMO, she wants to make it big at Hollywood, it is time to cheer and wish her the best as an actress. I speculate her heart is not in skating, not even show skating. But good news for her fans, they can follow her acting career instead. I am a big Sarah Hughes fan, when she retired, we don't see or hear about her much, and her fans just have to suffer the withdrawal.

kyla2 said:

I totally agree that Sasha never had the true sportsman's desire to win in the way I saw it in Michelle, Irina and now Zhang, Kim and Asada. I hate to call it "the killer instinct" but in many ways that's what it is. Michelle had that competitor's look and personal toughness from the word go. So does Zhang. So did Tara Lipinski. Sasha also had family issues going on with the divorce of her parents. That couldn't have been easy. I really believe that a stable home is much more nurturing and supportive for a skater.

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Heh? Lots of the Russian skaters hardly have stable families. But many came from nothing and so they see skating as a way to help their future...

I think it's too soon to say if Zhang has competitive instinct or not... She may, but she may not......

But yes, I think that perhaps Sasha did lack the desire to win in that well....In that sense that you can say you want to win all you want, but if your not willing to put the work in that's necessary for it to happen,,,

bekalc

The low living standard in Russia is a highly motivating factor for most Russian skaters. Quality of life is their main reason for NEEDING to make it in the skating world regardless of their family situation. It was a way out for them. In other words, dysfunctional families, which are pervasive in Russian society, are not an overriding issue for them. You can't compare Russian society with American society-apples and oranges. Sasha's family had money. So her main issue I think was her parent's situation, which I am sure was bad enough for a child living in it. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that her skating, coaching changes, moving from state to state were some of the issues in the family that her parents didn't see eye to eye on. There has to be tremendous pressure in that scenario. I also think Sasha liked to skate, I don't think she liked to compete. That's a major problem in and of itself.

I think we need a new thread titled "WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN WITH COHEN" and leave this one to dear ol' Meissner.

ETA: here's the thread

http://forum.hdldemo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=276472#post276472

now, back to Meissner...

she'll be fine. underrated, overrated, underdog or favorite. Without spoiling any upcoming GP telecasts, she should be ok for Nats and Worlds if she keeps her head in the game.

slutskayafan21 said:

The bottom line in all this for me though is that Sashas story is closed. Her career is over, and whatever you make of how that career and she as a skater will be remembered, it is whatever it is, the book is complete.

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Would you like to see the appetizers menu? You'll need something to go along with all the words you'll have to eat next season...

Kimmie Meissner is a Senior Lady ranked 4th in the World. I can possibly see her become the 3rd ranked Lady in the World but it's a wait and see.

The above opinion has nothing to do with underrated or overrated but just common sense. (That topic title was meant to be provocative but it fell flat.)

Joe