Lifts and Spins: Phrasing of the OD music

According to the clarifications to ISU Communication 1449 on Ice Dancing, if a lift or spin does not fit the "phrasing of the music" in the OD, the judges must reduce the GOE (and it must be in "minus").

Additionally, if the lift or spin in question doesn't reflect the "character" of the dance, the GOE must also be reduced by one grade.

So how do judges determine what is proper "character" and "phrasing of the music" when these elements are performed?

Since there are penalties involved if this rule is not applied, I wonder whether it is fair to introduce these kind of requirements - both for the judges and the skaters.

Your thoughts?

gsk8 said:

According to the clarifications to ISU Communication 1449 on Ice Dancing, if a lift or spin does not fit the "phrasing of the music" in the OD, the judges must reduce the GOE (and it must be in "minus").

Additionally, if the lift or spin in question doesn't reflect the "character" of the dance, the GOE must also be reduced by one grade.

So how do judges determine what is proper "character" and "phrasing of the music" when these elements are performed?

Since there are penalties involved if this rule is not applied, I wonder whether it is fair to introduce these kind of requirements - both for the judges and the skaters.

Your thoughts?

Click to expand...

I'm all for reducing GoEs where musical tempos and phrasings are ignored. Skaters, imo, who do not plan their lifts and spins properly are probably too interested in getting points. It's a CoP thing on Tech.

Lift or Spin to Reflect the Character of the Dance: That's a bit of a strain on the CoP points. Depending on the designated dance type for the OD, the choreographer has to be selective in the music choice to fit the proper lifts and spins into the routine. IMO, a viennese waltz would be much easier than a Cha Cha unless one makes the cha cha a humorous dance which would be easier than doing a real cha cha.

Determining the proper use of lifts and phrasing to the music should not be difficult for the judges. IMO, the flow of the complete dance will be obvious if the dancers are making proper use of lifts and phrasing. The difficulty here is the use of certain elements which must be included like Twizzles which, imo, does not always look like it belongs with the character of the dance but put there for points. Similarly, some lifts.

As to the penalties: I don't know who is in charge of assigning certain marks against rules not fully adhered to, so I just think there is not much thought into whether -1 or a -2 (has there ever been a -2) or a downgrade is the correct penalty for any 'error' in figure skating. However, I'm not a skating official.

Joe

COme to think of your comment, I can't think of anyone right now.
Can u give me some samples of spins and spirals that do not "fit" in the tempo of music and really deserve to be GOE reduced?

Since I am not a dance judge I do do not keep as close track of the specific GoE deductions for dance. But I find this interesting in a different sense. Whether the movements matches the phrasing of the music is part of the choreography PC, and whether the character of the music is expressed is part of the interpretation PC. So it seems to me these GoE reductions are redundant with the hit the skaters would take in the PCs and thus a double penalty.

As for a spin not matching the phrasing, one example that bugs me in singles and pairs is when the music changes in the middle of a spin -- say from fast to slow, or in emotional content -- and nothing changes in the spin. The spin begins in one phrase and ends in a completely different phase, and nothing in the spin follows the changes. To me this is always an error in choreographing the phrasing of the movement and pulls down the choreography PC.

For not expressing the character of the music. I would have a hard time expressing that succinctly in words, but I know it when I see it.

good post grossano -

Your example of a spin not matching the phrasing, I find a very common in skaters. There are a few who when changing posiitions do it with the change in music phrasing. A camel spin, and with a change of music, a drop to a sitsspin would show a lot about the skater. But most skaters do these for the points of a combo spin.

Character of the music, I believe should come from the heart, and not with obvious false facial expressions. It's tough to judge that.

Joe

Joesitz said:

I'm all for reducing GoEs where musical tempos and phrasings are ignored. Skaters, imo, who do not plan their lifts and spins properly are probably too interested in getting points. It's a CoP thing on Tech.

Lift or Spin to Reflect the Character of the Dance: That's a bit of a strain on the CoP points. Depending on the designated dance type for the OD, the choreographer has to be selective in the music choice to fit the proper lifts and spins into the routine. IMO, a viennese waltz would be much easier than a Cha Cha unless one makes the cha cha a humorous dance which would be easier than doing a real cha cha.

Determining the proper use of lifts and phrasing to the music should not be difficult for the judges. IMO, the flow of the complete dance will be obvious if the dancers are making proper use of lifts and phrasing. The difficulty here is the use of certain elements which must be included like Twizzles which, imo, does not always look like it belongs with the character of the dance but put there for points. Similarly, some lifts.

Click to expand...

To me it is distinctly irritating when I seen a lift, or spin or twizzles, or whatever done just for the points. While I agree that certian requirements are necessary in skating to ensure that all skaters are to the same level or that skaters can be judged more evenly, I hate that COP seems to have digressed to the point where you have to be a mathman to cheoreograph a program. I I know COP was devised to make the playing fleld more even, give skaters feedback, etc, but I think COP is shooting itself in the foot.