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Thread: Flutz issue

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    Flutz issue

    I'm sorry but I just couldn't resist opening a discussion about flutzes.
    Because I have some questions about it.

    In your opinion who has/had the worst flutz? Sarah, Sasha, Tara or Mao???

    Did these girls work on it, so their flutz became nearly a lutz in the next seasons? i.e. Tara??? Or there were no improvements at all.

    Of the new girls, who do you think has the best chance to learn a true lutz? Zhang???

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    Desperate Mouse Killer kandidy's Avatar
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    At present, I think it is Asada.
    Sorry for all of Mao's fan.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    First of all, it is not a flutz anymore, it is a wrong edge take off. It should apply to all jumps and spins. Unfortunately, there are no more school figures so a skater with scratchy indecisive Rockers and Counters are not really judged in the footwork sequence . Only the effect is.

    The back outside edge is a Basic move, and that is the edge from which the lutz takes off. At the Senior level if a skater is having trouble holding a back outside edge, then I believe it should show up in the PCS under Skating Ability, and show up seriously with serious penalties.

    Imagine a Senior Skater unable to hold a back outside edge and really unable to execute a 100 year old jump!!!

    How many skaters have this basic weakness?

    Joe

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    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    The problem isn't holding a back outside edge per se, the problem is that too many elite skaters now are no good at holding that edge while doing anything else...

    The whole concept of edge has degraded so that most skaters think it's something you do while leaning a certain way. One thing figures were good at it was training skaters to control the edge from the ankle down, this allowed them to hold an edge against what the upper body was doing. AFAICT MITF doesn't teach this well (at all?)

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    The problem isn't holding a back outside edge per se, the problem is that too many elite skaters now are no good at holding that edge while doing anything else...

    The whole concept of edge has degraded so that most skaters think it's something you do while leaning a certain way. One thing figures were good at it was training skaters to control the edge from the ankle down, this allowed them to hold an edge against what the upper body was doing. AFAICT MITF doesn't teach this well (at all?)
    Very true. It's more than a lean. It's a basic edge. the entire nature of the jump is not the lean or the attempt. It is the back outside edge. it's a Sports Thing.

    I think any Senior figure skater who can not execute a proper lutz should be ashamed of themselves. And if they are true seniors, learning to execute the jump properly should not be so difficult for the poor flutzers. But maybe they are not true Seniors and would do well in show skating. :sheesh:

    Joe

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    That's a great point by Joe and Mafke. I hadn't really thought of it that way before.

    I assume that any advanced skater is able to glide along on a back outside edge. But can they rotate a triple Lutz from a back outside edge take-off -- that's another story.

    So now what I am curious about it this. An elite skater who has a bad triple flutz -- is she able to do a proper double Lutz or single Lutz? Maybe she just isn't able to achieve the rotations unless she cheats the take-off.

    If the ISU adjusted the scale of values a little, it might be a viable strategy for a skater to do a great double Lutz instead of a bad triple flutz. (Under current rules a double Lutz with +1 GOE = 2.4 points, a medium-bad "e" call with -2 GOE = 4.0.)

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    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post

    So now what I am curious about it this. An elite skater who has a bad triple flutz -- is she able to do a proper double Lutz or single Lutz? Maybe she just isn't able to achieve the rotations unless she cheats the take-off.
    IIRC the conventional wisdom is that triple flutzers are (almost?) always double and single flutzers too. That is they learn the jump on the wrong edge and keep that as they add revolutions. And once the wrong edge is learned it's _much_ more difficult to unlearn it and learn the right edge. In practical terms it would mean taking the jump out of one's arsenal while fixing it and most skaters think they can't afford to do that.

    Also flutzing is not really new, the oldest reference I've seen is the early 80's (and I'm sure it had been around for a while then too) but back then a skater didn't necessarily need to do a full complement of jumps and flutzers didn't include the jump in programs (or expected to get dinged). For ladies the triple lutz did not become a common jump until the mid 90's or so.

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    Joe, what a great viewpoint!! never thought of edge issue that way.
    I really learn a lot from here.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mafke View Post
    IIRC the conventional wisdom is that triple flutzers are (almost?) always double and single flutzers too. That is they learn the jump on the wrong edge and keep that as they add revolutions. And once the wrong edge is learned it's _much_ more difficult to unlearn it and learn the right edge. In practical terms it would mean taking the jump out of one's arsenal while fixing it and most skaters think they can't afford to do that.
    Very interesting. This is basically what Raphael Aruturian was complaining about in his recent interview with respect to Mao Asada. Arutunian felt that the ISU should have phased the wrong edge rule into the CoP gradually, starting at the lower levels, so that elite skaters like Mao wouldn't suddenly find themselves up the creek.

    I suppose it is easy to blame coaches. Why didn't they teach it right when the kid was 10?

    But I can understand that, too. With no figures, the kids just want to leap about and have fun. Since 99.9 per cent of all kids in learn-to-skate classes will never pursue the sport at the elite level, it must be hard to focus a child's attention on details like proper edges.

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    Could someone answer my three questions, please???

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    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gio View Post
    In your opinion who has/had the worst flutz? Sarah, Sasha, Tara or Mao???
    Did these girls work on it, so their flutz became nearly a lutz in the next seasons? i.e. Tara??? Or there were no improvements at all.
    Of the new girls, who do you think has the best chance to learn a true lutz? Zhang???
    1. Worst flutz? Subjective question but I'll go with Sarah Hughes because of that weird S tracing she had going into it (and the pre-Zhang mulekick).

    2. Do they try to fix it? I think that often elite flutzers try to work on the jump but it requires unlearning (always harder than learning in the first place) and in the stress of competition the temptation is to go with what you're most used to. IIRC Hughes was showing improvement in practice but never risked the improved technique in competition.

    3. The one most likely to fix it is the one who's willing to take it out of their competitive programs while fixing it and not doing it in competition till they can do it right. That is, probably none of them. The thing with the real hardcore flutzers right now is they all have kind of wonky technique (yes, even Asada). That said, I'd say Asada has the right kind of work ethic to fix it but with her other jump troubles probably doesn't want to take it out of her rep long enough to get a true lutz.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I think Caroline Zhang will be able to do what Michelle Kwan did. I don't think Caroline will ever have a solid no-fooling back outside edge like Liashenko or Sokolova (both of whom had other problems). Michelle never had a truly awful flutz (good coaching) and by constant effort was usually able to stay within the "flat to a few degrees one way or the other" range.

    Before this season, I would say that skaters had little motivation to want to fix a faulty technique. You could win an Olympic gold medal anyway.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelleFilleYuna View Post
    Joe, what a great viewpoint!! never thought of edge issue that way.
    I really learn a lot from here.
    Thank you BFY. I'm just the ornery complainer about a jump that doesn't exist. Alois Lutz invented the jump. Did he say one could do his jump anyway they want or the way he invented it? Do people get credit for a triple axel when they only did a double axel even if the intent and the lean was a triple axel?

    I believe the carelessness about this jump lies with the Oly champ of 1998 who had the most famous flutz of that era. While Tara did do many challenging triples in her routine successfully, she did not do a proper lutz. I just can't help thinking that skaters and coaches were not going to let this worry them so if a skater was spending too much time on doing what Alois invented, they would invent their own. It wont keep them from gold. True! but there are other ways to gain points. Why not just disregard a wrong edge take off, as a non entity. It does not penalize and, of course, gives no credit for a personal jump. Leave it out for other recognized successful elements leading up to higher points. Better still, learn how to do a proper lutz.

    Horrors, this gets me so worked up. To see the elite skaters unable to comply with a basic movement on ice:The Back Outside Edge.

    Joe
    Last edited by Joesitz; 11-18-2007 at 02:00 PM.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BelleFilleYuna View Post
    Joe, what a great viewpoint!! never thought of edge issue that way.

    I really learn a lot from here.
    I second that! Joe has been hammering away at the flutz issue for years. At first he was a lone beacon in a sea of darkness. Then, little by little, we have all come around to see the point. Even the ISU seems ready to acknowledge the problem.

    I will give Joe his props on another issue, too. The universal pre-rotation (sometimes as much as 360 degrees) on the loop jump when it is the second jump of a combo.

    This, as Joe has pointed out, is a double whammy under the New Judging System. Because, if you try, say, a triple flip + so-called-triple loop combo, then the rules discourage you from also doing a solo triple loop (that is, a real triple loop). So the true loop jump falls by the wayside at the topmost level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Very interesting. This is basically what Raphael Aruturian was complaining about in his recent interview with respect to Mao Asada. Arutunian felt that the ISU should have phased the wrong edge rule into the CoP gradually, starting at the lower levels, so that elite skaters like Mao wouldn't suddenly find themselves up the creek.
    The wrong edge rule has been in CoP from the beginning; the only difference this year is that after four seasons of the judges not deducting it according to the rules, the callers have been given the responsibility of enforcement. How do you enforce it gradually? How many warnings do the skaters need? In my opinion, they are giving skaters the two full seasons before the next Olympics to work on their jump technique, as well as due warning to the kids in juniors. (Although Ms. Zhang appears not to have gotten the memo.)

    Under 6.0, the judges could do whatever they wanted, rolled into a single mark. I don't remember seeing any rules under 6.0 that caused a flutz to be treated as a flip or a lip to be treated as a lutz in the Zayak rules, or to give no credit to a flutz or lip because it wasn't a defined jump. Maybe they deducted for Bobek's, Suguri's, Hughes' and Cohen's, etc. flutzes -- which is a "wrong edge" jump -- or Arakawa's, Sebestyen's, and Meier's, etc. lips, and maybe they took off a tad for a lip than for a lutz, because they thought it was a harder jump, or maybe they only deducted for flutzes, or maybe they deducted for Meier's lip, because she was a newbie, but left Sebestyen's alone. No one knows; it's all wrapped up in that one little mark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman
    This, as Joe has pointed out, is a double whammy under the New Judging System. Because, if you try, say, a triple flip + so-called-triple loop combo, then the rules discourage you from also doing a solo triple loop (that is, a real triple loop). So the true loop jump falls by the wayside at the topmost level.
    .

    Where in the data is this supported? The few skaters who do 3X/3Lo usually have flip combo and lutz combo, as well as solo lutzes and flips in their program. By the Zayak rules, they can only have two triple repeats. What encourages skaters to drop the solo loop is points: both a flip and lutz score more than a loop. Why leave points on the table?

    Pre-rotation penalty may discourage skaters from doing a 3X/3Lo combination in the first place. Arakawa's underrotated 3Lz/3Lo in Dortmund was widely noted, and she was dinged for underrotated 3/3's in the 2004-5 season.
    Last edited by hockeyfan228; 11-18-2007 at 04:21 PM.

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