Flutz issue | Page 7 | Golden Skate

Flutz issue

ks777

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 15, 2003
They would be in the same difficulty level as a consistent lipper would be to fix the lip. Though some lippers claimed they had already fixed their lips, in fact they did not fix anything, they just find a way to hide their errors from the judges' eyes. They still can not take off from the inside edge in their lips. 

I dont' think the Lip is as hard to fix as the flutz. The lippers are already doing the harder jump than they are supposed to so it should be easier. On the other hand, the flutz is not easy to fix as you already noticed that the lippers like Ando and Kimmie fixed their flip quite easily in a short period of time. My guess is that the flutzers learned their lutz when they couldn't even skate backward on the outside edge, I just noticed that by watching little girls practicing the lutz jump.
 

Oscilla

On the Ice
Joined
Sep 1, 2006
Has anyone ever done it?

Nobu Oda flutzed until he was 17. One of the Japanese commentators called him on that during his performance at 2004 Jr. Worlds. During the off-season he went to Barkell and fixed his jumping technique.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1801/nobulutz1pw4.jpg

Sorry for the horrible quality of the screencaps and bad angles - because of LQ of the video and very low frame rate trying to catch a good frame was like giving birth to a hedgehog.
Yes, that blurred, broken thing on the third screencap is his ankle. It looks like at first he used only the flexibility of the ankle to get the correct edge, and then gradually corrected his body position so as not to lean so much to the right side during the take-off.

Some time after last Worlds he was used as a test subject in a hilarious program about how people jumping Lutz make funny expressions because of the counter-rotation. :rofl: Facial expressions aside, all the lutzes he landed in that program were just :love: :love: :love:
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/2700/nobulutz2pi1.jpg

ETA: Finally a decent angle: http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/6074/nobulutz3fd1.jpg

The bad technique might occassionally re-surface (while breaking in new boots, or suffering from knee/ankle injury - it happened to Nobu a few times) but it is a relatively rare occurence.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Any coach of sportsmanship will have his students doing proper from his earliest jumping lessons. First, single air rotations, then double, then triple. But that's only if the coach is good.

It really is easy to flutz but that's not a Lutz, and it is habit forming. Tough to break that habit at Senior level. Therefore the coach in at least juniors if not juvenile should work on comfortable back outside edges. And skaters should put in some practice time with it and not worry about their web pages.

Joe
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Do you think that Caroline, Mao, and Ashley Wagner are capable of fixing the flutz by the next season or at least before the Olympics?
 

Wrlmy

Medalist
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Do you think that Caroline, Mao, and Ashley Wagner are capable of fixing the flutz by the next season or at least before the Olympics?

Oh I believe they are capable. They are very fine skaters. However, if anyone fixes it within couple years, it would be Caroline simple because she's that motivated. This is not to say Mao isn't motivated, but she has too much at stake if she were to fix her flutz right now, especially when her goal is winning 2010 Olympics. Looking at what happened to Joannie, to whom I send my undying respect and love for actually correcting her lutz, I don't think it's going to be a good plan for Mao.
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Therefore the coach in at least juniors if not juvenile should work on comfortable back outside edges.

I'd say that from what I hear backward serpentines can work wonders for skaters' ability to hold an outside edge but I don't think too many people want to realize that...
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I'd say that from what I hear backward serpentines can work wonders for skaters' ability to hold an outside edge but I don't think too many people want to realize that...
Very true, I can't believe Free skaters will take the time to be as edge conscious as Dance Skaters are.

Joe
 

tiara

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 16, 2004
Nobu Oda flutzed until he was 17. One of the Japanese commentators called him on that during his performance at 2004 Jr. Worlds. During the off-season he went to Barkell and fixed his jumping technique.

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1801/nobulutz1pw4.jpg

Sorry, I can not agree with you. Oda just keeps his outside edge longer than before during the approach into his lutz and actually takes off from the inside edge at the last second. Of course he will not receive 'e' marks because of the "obvious" clause of the rule. However, you can not claim that Oda has already fixed his flutzs. He can just escape from punishment like Yuna's lips. That is all. Mao should learn the trick from Oda.:laugh:
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
the lack of consensus

One thing that I find interesting about this take-off-edge judging issue is the lack of consensus among the FS world. There wouldn't be this many flutzers and lippers around if the majority of coaches were really uncomfortable with it. Flutzers and lippers were often receiving plus GOE until last season. I also heard TV commentators, many of whom were former champions, called a flutz/lip a beautiful jump. I still hear such comments this year. Then this year we suddenly see -1 to -3 deduction. Why didn't these coaches, judges, and commentators care very much until this year if these are so important?

As a casual fan, who quitted competing many years ago, I do not have any specific opinions about how things should be. But this inconsistency, or the lack of consensus in the skating world, looks rather strange to me. I also feel somewhat sorry for the senior skaters who have to adjust at their ages.
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
One thing that I find interesting about this take-off-edge judging issue is the lack of consensus among the FS world. There wouldn't be this many flutzers and lippers around if the majority of coaches were really uncomfortable with it. Flutzers and lippers were often receiving plus GOE until last season. I also heard TV commentators, many of whom were former champions, called a flutz/lip a beautiful jump. I still hear such comments this year. Then this year we suddenly see -1 to -3 deduction. Why didn't these coaches, judges, and commentators care very much until this year if these are so important?.
I don't see anything wrong with a Flutz or Lip. I woul like that they just give it a name and a base value but don't call it an attempted jump. Let the Lutz stand as it is prescribed by Alois, and not make a mockery out of it. It will also give the skaters a decision to make.

There was a skater in the GPs. I don't remember if it was Lambiel or v.d.Perren who attempted a 3A but realized that he could not make the 3rd air turn and finished the jumps in a beautiful 2A. I think it was Paul who said, that is a first pop-up that worked.

How would you judge that? It was written in his Planned Program Sheet. A base value for the 3A attempt with GoE deductions? and plus GoEs for the excellent 2A.

I know it is easy enough to say a downgrade but how do we know it was not intentional. I believe a skater can change his Planned Program sheet in the LP.

Joe
 

childfreegirl

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 6, 2004
There was a skater in the GPs. I don't remember if it was Lambiel or v.d.Perren who attempted a 3A but realized that he could not make the 3rd air turn and finished the jumps in a beautiful 2A. I think it was Paul who said, that is a first pop-up that worked.

How would you judge that? It was written in his Planned Program Sheet. A base value for the 3A attempt with GoE deductions? and plus GoEs for the excellent 2A.

I know it is easy enough to say a downgrade but how do we know it was not intentional. I believe a skater can change his Planned Program sheet in the LP.

Joe

I would call it a double.
 

gio

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Alyssa Czisny received an -e for her flips also at NHK. I don't remember her lipping last year.
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
That's ok, then you believe he actually went for a double and did not attempt the 3A which was was written in his PPC so no penalty and no problem with the Zayak rule with doubles. ok.

Joe
It's what you actually do that counts, not what you intend. If someone turned it into a double, that's what they get credit for.
 

tiara

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 16, 2004
***. The edge rule was originally meant for Mao. However, it (has) hit Ando who has tried to fix her lips harder than Mao who has yet to fix them. That is very interesting.
 
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