Corrupt Russian Dance Panel?

Mathman · Nov 23, 2007

oxade21 said:
On side note, nobody seems to complain here to see Victor Petrenko and Galina Zmeevskaya cheering and hugging Weir in KnC???

Why would anyone complain about that? What people are complaining about is the history of crooked judging in ice dance, and the fact that even when cheaters are caught red-handed they are right back in the saddle the next year, like nothing ever happened.

And by ISU you mean?

By the ISU I meant the union hierarchy. Mr. Cinquanta and his supporters and appointees. They are not unhappy with the status quo. As you say, if they didn't like it they would change it.

chuckm · Nov 23, 2007

oxade21 said:
So rotate the representation then, but nobody wants to. I would also be happy to see that. Well, at least Dostatney's presence gives some more excitment

The ISU technical committee decides which judges go to which competition. And guess who the head of the ISU technical committee is----a Russian, of course! That's why even if the US or Canada "loaned" judges to a smaller federation, you'd never see them on an important panel (GP, GPF, ISU Championship) even if they were ISU judges.

It's amazing that ARM, UZB, BLR and AZE get so many judging assignments when they have so few world-class skaters. UKR hasn't had a high-level Singles skater since Liashenko retired, but UKR gets loads of assignments for Single events.

The fact is Cinquanta can rely on the support of the powerful Russian federation to keep him in office forever. So Cinquanta allows the Russian federation plenty of freedom to do as it wishes. It's a symbiotic relationship that provides a win-win for both sides, even if it shortchanges all the other federations and makes for a heavily tilted playing field.

oxade21 · Nov 23, 2007

Mathman said:
Why would anyone complain about that? What people are complaining about is the history of crooked judging in ice dance, and the fact that even when cheaters are caught red-handed they are right back in the saddle the next year, like nothing ever happened.By the ISU I meant the union hierarchy. Mr. Cinquanta and his supporters and appointees. They are not unhappy with the status quo. As you say, if they didn't like it they would change it.

The tone of this discussion is that all former Soviet judges are evil and other are so clean and perky. The fact that nobody complains mean that nobody is actually clean and everyone is happy for this status quo. Dance is one of the compatitions where no matter how you try someone bound to compain and be unhappy. And you can not really separate one discipline in skating form another when we discuss the judging because it is always placement trading in one portion for another one. Dance is just most visible one.

emma · Nov 23, 2007

oxade21 said:
And Tarasova is on right now and look really pissed that Lambiel is put ahead of Weir))

Oh, I wish I could see that!! I love both Weir and Lambiel, so I'm happy for both -

Anyway - back to this thread and judging....

slutskayafan21 · Nov 23, 2007

How do you avoid having multiple former Soviet countries on a panel quite often though. There are so many former Soviet countries that exist after the breakup. Also former Soviet judges even move to smaller countries without much available judges and become judges for them. Even if there were not probably some corrupt people who aid in this, I am not sure if there would be an easy way to prevent it.

slutskayafan21 · Nov 23, 2007

Does anyone know exactly the # of former Soviet Republics that are official nations of the ISU? I am guessing atleast 7.

life684 · Nov 23, 2007

has anyone seen the performance of DomShab or just simply mourning. I think they are best Ice dancer with beautiful lines and good orginality.Secondly Juges seem to be over scoring tanith and belbin alot.they were in no position to win beonze at last world and their performance at both gps were not exceptional to et such high score(May be AMericans have currupted the system like artistic gymnastics at last olympics).

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 23, 2007

oxade21 said:
This discussion is so old and tired.
If ISU is not happy with over-representation of former Soviet citizens in judging panel, why not ban it???
The reason is simple- nobody to replace them. If Canada or USA wants to send their judge to represent Tajikistan, do it. BUT, they can not, cause they do not have any.
This is a temporary situation, the Russian coaches are working in USA and Canada to grow those professionals. Unfortunately, nobody complains about that fact.
So stop whining and blaming, and move on.

Nothing wrong with the natives being judges in these competitions but are they true natives?

How would you feel if the Judges from Saskatchuan and Arkansas were on the Panel? One must understand, that Amercians are not solidly behind Amercian skaters Americans believe in the 'the best man to win'. And I am sure Canadian do too.

If we knew what the judges scores were by each judge named, do you think they will not be in agreement? Let's check out the protocols and see if there is a similarity among 4 judges as opposed to the rest.

We have half jokingly discussed the ex-patriot Russian skaters in the US who decide to take out citizenship. If they pass the judgship test, and why not, which skaters will they subjectively score higher - those from the US or from Russia?

One must remember that Being first was most important In the USSR and that carries on in Russia today in some ideologies like figure skating. It's a cultural thing.

Joe

chuckm · Nov 23, 2007

emma said:
Oh, I wish I could see that!! I love both Weir and Lambiel, so I'm happy for both -

Anyway - back to this thread and judging....

As a two-time World champion and reigning World medalist, Lambiel was given high enough PCS scores to barely edge Johnny, who beat him in the TES by nearly 1.5 points.

oxade21 · Nov 23, 2007

life684 said:
has anyone seen the performance of DomShab or just simply mourning. I think they are best Ice dancer with beautiful lines and good orginality.Secondly Juges seem to be over scoring tanith and belbin alot.they were in no position to win beonze at last world and their performance at both gps were not exceptional to et such high score(May be AMericans have currupted the system like artistic gymnastics at last olympics).

I think DomShabs are one of the greatest skaters out there today, however they have awful taste in choosing the programs and costumes and even considering that, they are fab!!! I can't imagine what they could do with great programs. They have the best skating skills, edges and lines in the field that is usually always reflected in CD and OD scores where they usually get lead over everyone else.
The problem they have is FD, where it is hard to please everyone especially certain fans pf certains skaters

Moreover, now we have another exciting Russian team that is giving DomShabs run for their money.
And for everyone's information, my favorite ice dance team is V/M but they are not quite there just yet.

oxade21 · Nov 23, 2007

Joesitz said:
Nothing wrong with the natives being judges in these competitions but are they true natives?

How would you feel if the Judges from Saskatchuan and Arkansas were on the Panel? One must understand, that Amercians are not solidly behind Amercian skaters Americans believe in the 'the best man to win'. And I am sure Canadian do too.

If we knew what the judges scores were by each judge named, do you think they will not be in agreement? Let's check out the protocols and see if there is a similarity among 4 judges as opposed to the rest.

We have half jokingly discussed the ex-patriot Russian skaters in the US who decide to take out citizenship. If they pass the judgship test, and why not, which skaters will they subjectively score higher - those from the US or from Russia?

One must remember that Being first was most important In the USSR and that carries on in Russia today in some ideologies like figure skating. It's a cultural thing.

Joe

Well, the point that I am trying to make is that I DO NOT care who is judging someone from Papua New Guinea or from Alaskan native. The bias and corruption would still exist. The problem is that there are no skilled and experienced enough judges in the pool to make those country representation more blalanced. And everyone realises that, BUT this situation is not going to last too long as the coaches who are usally the ones becoming judges are growing up in USA ad Canada and other countries.
STILL, I do not think having it more balanced would help the situation this sport is so subjective that there is always be a loophole. AND that the most fun part of this sport

)

P.S: Being first is important in any sport and any country if it is not you are @#%%%^ UP

Mathman · Nov 23, 2007

oxade21 said:
The fact that nobody complains mean that nobody is actually clean and everyone is happy for this status quo....

In my opinion this is what we should constantly be protesting.

And you can not really separate one discipline in skating form another when we discuss the judging because it is always placement trading in one portion for another one.

This, too.

oxade said:
P.S: Being first is important in any sport and any country. If it is not you are @#%%%^ UP

For athletes, yes.

For national federations? Well, OK. But they should also be concerned about safeguading the integrity of the sport.

For judges? All right, I'm naive. But I expect judges to be as dedicated to judging as the athletes are to competing. I don't think the primary motivation of a judge should be to insure that his favorite or his countryman wins.

chuckm · Nov 23, 2007

oxade21 said:
P.S: Being first is important in any sport and any country if it is not you are @#%%%^ UP

Apparently it is SO important to the Russian federation that they will go to any lengths to ensure it happens, including panel-stuffing. Because they have more judges on panels than any other federation, they also are in a very strong position when it comes to deal-making.

But in the end, there is general skepticism as to whether the 'winners' ARE really the best, or just the ones backed by powerful federations. Again, if Russian teams really ARE the best, then why is it necessary to stack the odds against their competitors by packing panels with pro-Russian judges?

oxade21 · Nov 23, 2007

Mathman said:
For judges? All right, I'm naive. But I expect judges to be as dedicated to judging as the athletes are to competing. I don't think the primary motivation of a judge should be to insure that his favorite or his countryman wins.

Too much to wish and expect, that's never gonna happen no matter which country and how many coutries are at the judging panel. Sorry but true.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 23, 2007

oxade21 said:
STILL, I do not think having it more balanced would help the situation this sport is so subjective that there is always be a loophole. AND that the most fun part of this sport)

Your bringing up subjectivity is quite correct. When there are two Russians in a competition, then there is serious decision making and subjectivity rules. Abt, Yags, Plush, for example. Otherwise no decision is necessary for anyone else. It's obvious. I won't give example because it will open a can of worms.

P.S: Being first is important in any sport and any country if it is not you are @#%%%^ UP

Hey, such language, tsk tsk.

Being first is definitely important for the individual skater. The country is not so important except for the media. Imo, the Russian judges will be ok with Mao winning over Martinova, Daisuke winning over Griazev. However, for a placement they will go for Kawguchi/Smirnov, and of course, the holier-than-thou Dance Competition, we all know who wil get the highest scores (at all costs).

Joe

oxade21 · Nov 23, 2007

Joesitz said:
Being first is definitely important for the individual skater. The country is not so important except for the media. Imo, the Russian judges will be ok with Mao winning over Martinova, Daisuke winning over Griazev. However, for a placement they will go for Kawguchi/Smirnov, and of course, the holier-than-thou Dance Competition, we all know who wil get the highest scores (at all costs).

Joe

You know you can change the names and and coutries and apply the same rule. But judges are people no matter where you are from. Any of them tend to judge for their skater and I hope I do not have to demonstrate some scorings of Canadian judges make

I was watching today the russian coverage of Pairs and noticed at how they are encouraging the rivalry between K/S and M/T, they are literally want them to eat each other

And I think it is great and make you stronger and better. Same situation is in Dance, K/N and D/S are fighting it out. I believe the current Russian teams are among top 6 in the World and deserves the praise, of course not everyone agrees and that's what Dance is all about.
However, when there is certain point where the lead is clearly visible it is hard to cheat like in Pairs, Men or Women. In dance it is hard to determine unless you make big mistakes so they use that. Unless we find a different way of judging and scoring in Dance, nothing can change.

decker · Nov 23, 2007

slutskayafan21 said:
Does anyone know exactly the # of former Soviet Republics that are official nations of the ISU? I am guessing atleast 7.

I count Uzbekistan, Ukraine, Russia, Kazakhstan, Georgia, Belarus and Azerbaijan as Formerly Soviet nations with ISU memberships.

If you're interested ... Slovenia, Slovakia, Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Romania, Poland, the Czech Republic, Croatia, Bulgaria, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and Hungary are Formerly Eastern Block nations.

On a different note (and nothing to do with Slutskayafan's post), I work on a public health project that is being conducted in Ukraine. As discussed elsewhere in the forum, Ukraine is a border state with a mishmash of ethnicities and subcultures. The notion that someone from Ukraine would automatically side with Russia is odd to me. Begging pardon of any Ukrainian board members, I find it difficult to locate 2 Ukrainians who agree about anything significant, even if we stipulate that they are of the same ethnicity

Also ... has the ISU stopped tossing 3 random scores? The computer scoring program has to be compromised to assure that the "correct" judges' scores will be counted at all competitions involved in the fix. And wouldn't all the tech panelists have to be recruited as well so they don't make "wrong" calls?

I'm no fan of the anonymous judging compensated for by random score tossing. It's statistical molestation. But the bigger a conspiracy must be in order to work, the more strongly I doubt that it's there.

Susan

oxade21 · Nov 23, 2007

decker said:
I count Uzbekistan, Ukraine, Russia, Kazakhstan, Georgia, Belarus and Azerbaijan as Formerly Soviet nations with ISU memberships.

If you're interested ... Slovenia, Slovakia, Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Romania, Poland, the Czech Republic, Croatia, Bulgaria, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and Hungary are Formerly Eastern Block nations.

On a different note (and nothing to do with Slutskayafan's post), I work on a public health project that is being conducted in Ukraine. As discussed elsewhere in the forum, Ukraine is a border state with a mishmash of ethnicities and subcultures. The notion that someone from Ukraine would automatically side with Russia is odd to me. Begging pardon of any Ukrainian board members, I find it difficult to locate 2 Ukrainians who agree about anything significant, even if we stipulate that they are of the same ethnicity

Also ... has the ISU stopped tossing 3 random scores? The computer scoring program has to be compromised to assure that the "correct" judges' scores will be counted at all competitions involved in the fix. And wouldn't all the tech panelists have to be recruited as well so they don't make "wrong" calls?

I'm no fan of the anonymous judging compensated for by random score tossing. It's statistical molestation. But the bigger a conspiracy must be in order to work, the more strongly I doubt that it's there.

Susan

Exactly, I wonder why nobody is complaining about tech specialist at ISU who openly express his opinions on screwing up certain French team

chuckm · Nov 23, 2007

Yury Balkov used to judge for the USSR before the breakup, and he judges for Ukraine today. He was banned for several years by the ISU for blatant cheating, but is now back judging at major ISU events. Many of them.

Anyone who thinks he will not place Russian skaters and teams higher than their competitors is engaging in wishful thinking. He knows the Russian judges will follow the quid pro quo and boost Ukrainian skaters and teams whenever possible.

When there are 4 pro-Russian judges on a panel, the odds that the scores of at least two of them will count are high. Every other federation is at greater risk for being left out of the random selection.

slutskayafan21 · Nov 23, 2007

decker said:
I count Uzbekistan, Ukraine, Russia, Kazakhstan, Georgia, Belarus and Azerbaijan as Formerly Soviet nations with ISU memberships.

If you're interested ... Slovenia, Slovakia, Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Romania, Poland, the Czech Republic, Croatia, Bulgaria, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, and Hungary are Formerly Eastern Block nations.

Thank you. 7 official Former Soviet Nations, which I thought was the minimum it would be; but also alot of other countries with Soviet connections of some kind. So you see how if even the people in control did not have some corrupt individuals it would be hard to avoid.

Corrupt Russian Dance Panel?

Mathman

chuckm

oxade21

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emma

slutskayafan21

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slutskayafan21

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life684

Joesitz (RIP)

chuckm

oxade21

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oxade21

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Mathman

chuckm

oxade21

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Joesitz (RIP)

oxade21

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decker

oxade21

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chuckm

slutskayafan21

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