Best Ladies' figure skater of all time? Take 2

[slutskayafan21]

Using my first poll as a guage for the accuracy of my selections I am making an updated poll using the indications I got from the first poll of who was an unneccessary poll option and perhaps better replaced with new options. I also realize the grave and horrendous mistake I made of not including my all time favorite female skater in the initial poll and that had to rectified, forgive me I could not bear to to go any longer for not correcting my grave mistake which nagged away at me from time to time.

Sorry Carol, Dorothy, and Herma, love you all, but with no more then 1 vote for any of you as greatest ever after 71 voters you were dropped from my test poll when it came to the final submissions.

[Kwanford Wife]

Now, don't you feel better???

I feel better... my favorite and the greatest skater of all time Michelle Kwan will win again... ahhh... I love it when a plan comes together...

[Tonichelle]

it's an eville kwanspiracy! with KW at the helm! ARRRRRRRR

oy sleep is calling my name

I again vote for Kristi of those in the poll.

[slutskayafan21]

I voted for my girl. My biased but still somewhat objective reasons are:

-her record 7 European titles, 1 more then multi-Olympic Champions Katarina Witt
and Sonja Henjie.

-her longevity at the World level, matching that of her great rival Michelle Kwan, and might be unheard of in modern times for skating.

-her incredible comebacks back to the top from the lows of missing even making Worlds in 1999, and hitting rock bottom with her own illness and mothers illness in 2004 were in her return to competition she was only 8th at Worlds.

-her incredible overall technical ability, that being not just jumps, but her combination of strength in jumps, spins, footwork, edges, and speed. I even think her spirals are very good, they just get overshadowed and even put down since she is unlucky to be compared to the spirals of Michelle and Sasha.

-her underrated artistic ability, which while it lacks compared to the very best in those areas, in the polish, elegance, and grace, one normally associates as the most known images of artistry; excels in wonderful basic skating, terrific utilization and interpretation of various pieces of music as she got older, a command and presence on the ice, and an ability to create mood and drama with her performance.

-her incredible record at the GP final were her 4 golds, 3 silver, 2 bronze, and 10 total appearances, will be hard for anyone to match.

-14 wins on the GP circuit (excluding the GP final), again a tough mark to shoot for.

-6 world medals, tied for 3rd most in history, trailing only Henjie and Kwan.

[jsteam4501s]

Well, after noticing that you added Janet Lynn to the list, I immediately voted for her, but you never stated your reason(s) for not including Tara Lipinski. I must say again, her immediate impact on Ladies' figure skating as the youngest US National, World, and Olympic Champion ever, qualifies her for this list without question or debate. The number of titles won or years in the sport may matter, but in many cases, a voter's preference for "greatest ever" can be legitimately - legitimately - inflluenced by which skaters that voter has actuallly seen with his or her own eyes. Dorothy Hamill and Carol Heiss deserve the chance for votes right up to the closing of the poll. JMO.

[slutskayafan21]

Well, after noticing that you added Janet Lynn to the list, I immediately voted for her, but you never stated your reason(s) for not including Tara Lipinski.

Since she was a blip on the radar screen. She easily ranks below every single one of these women on this particular poll, as well as Heiss, Hamill, Szabo who were all on my first poll, in the history of the sport. There is no reason to leave off a more deserving choice to put her on. These polls only allow 10 max options (9 and an other basically) not 20. If there were 20 poll options allowed I might have included her.

[attyfan]

I voted for "other" because you did not include Madge Sayers. Considering that it was her skating in 1903 (and beating all the men but Ulrich Salcow) that persuaded the ISU to have a ladies event, she must have been good. Certainly, there is no other woman whose skills caused the ISU to create an entire discipline!

[slutskayafan21]

I voted for "other" because you did not include Madge Sayers. Considering that it was her skating in 1903 (and beating all the men but Ulrich Salcow) that persuaded the ISU to have a ladies event, she must have been good. Certainly, there is no other woman whose skills caused the ISU to create an entire discipline!

I apologize for not including her then, but no matter what poll options I had used I would have been criticized by someone for not including so and so.

Anyway all my options have a vote this time only 22 votes in, and excluding the 2 "other" votes, the 20 votes were spread over all 9 individuals. Already in a certain sense I have succeeded with my "revised" poll then.

[Kwanford Wife]

I apologize for not including her then, but no matter what poll options I had used I would have been criticized by someone for not including so and so.

Anyway all my options have a vote this time only 22 votes in, and excluding the 2 "other" votes, the 20 votes were spread over all 9 individuals. Already in a certain sense I have succeeded with my "revised" poll then.

As long as you included Michelle Kwan you're fine... (Tara Lipinski - as if...)

And yes, Toni it is a full out KWAN spiracy... I'm bored ...

[jsteam4501s]

[QUOTE=slutskayafan21;279582]Since she was a blip on the radar screen. She easily ranks below every single one of these women on this particular poll, as well as Heiss, Hamill, Szabo who were all on my first poll, in the history of the sport.

In your self-admitted bias opinion, of course.

So, you can only list 9 women for the title of "greatest lady skater of all time" and Irina Slutskaya is one of those 9?

My take on this is that you are blinded by number of titles won and by longevity.
I could list AT LEAST 15 names for this poll and it would not include Slutskaya.

You stated that "Most Beautiful Skater" would have to be a separate poll. But you see, Most Beautiful and Greatest MUST overlap to some degree. Also, what unique accomplishment did the skater have? First ever, youngest ever, a skater who opened up _________ to skating. An icon for whatever reason.

If I could list 10, in no particular order, they would be:

Henie - M.V. Owen - Heiss - Fleming - Lynn - Hamill - Thomas - Kwan - Lipinski - Lulu. My No. 11, just outside the "Elite"? - Elaine Zayak, because she made the triple jump a basic element for Lady skaters that has lasted to this day. No. 12? Midori Ito, because she took the triple jump to the highest (literally!) level.

Katarina Witt - NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

If not for her body, she would have been in Germany flipping burgers for a living.

[Kwanford Wife]

[QUOTE=jsteam4501s;279891]

Katarina Witt - NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

If not for her body, she would have been in Germany flipping burgers for a living.

Kat is the diva... that's simple fact... she had it all: talent, guts, ambition and that indefinable something that made her a star...

[slutskayafan21]

Since she was a blip on the radar screen. She easily ranks below every single one of these women on this particular poll, as well as Heiss, Hamill, Szabo who were all on my first poll, in the history of the sport.

In your self-admitted bias opinion, of course.

So, you can only list 9 women for the title of "greatest lady skater of all time" and Irina Slutskaya is one of those 9?

My take on this is that you are blinded by number of titles won and by longevity.
I could list AT LEAST 15 names for this poll and it would not include Slutskaya.

You stated that "Most Beautiful Skater" would have to be a separate poll. But you see, Most Beautiful and Greatest MUST overlap to some degree. Also, what unique accomplishment did the skater have? First ever, youngest ever, a skater who opened up _________ to skating. An icon for whatever reason.

If I could list 10, in no particular order, they would be:

Henie - M.V. Owen - Heiss - Fleming - Lynn - Hamill - Thomas - Kwan - Lipinski - Lulu. My No. 11, just outside the "Elite"? - Elaine Zayak, because she made the triple jump a basic element for Lady skaters that has lasted to this day. No. 12? Midori Ito, because she took the triple jump to the highest (literally!) level.

Katarina Witt - NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

If not for her body, she would have been in Germany flipping burgers for a living.

Sorry but you are......crazy. :chorus: My "self-admited bias opinion". No that would be yours. Slutskaya's career is head and shoulders better then Lipinski's, it is better to have a great career stretched over 10 years then be a 2-year blip like Lipinski is. Irina has even been the first to do more jump combinations then Tara, and that is by far Tara'a biggest forte, and her jumps were actually "jumps" not "hops" like Tara's wer. Tara's only advantages at all is winning the Olympics, and that she was better for a 2 year period when they competed against each other due to Irina going through a slump and weight gain. As for "youngest ever" tags, well she will become a trivia question, and most people will get the answer wrong. That is all.

As for Witt outside the elite while Lipinski is in? . Tara the blip is not worthy of licking one of Witt's discared bras.

[temperboy28]

For me it is Kristi Yamaguchi, Witt would have been my 2nd choice, Kwan my 3rd, Slutskaya my 4th. As for Lipinski belonging in a poll like this.

[jsteam4501s]

[QUOTE=slutskayafan21;280066] Tara's only advantages at all is winning the Olympics, and that she was better for a 2 year period when they competed against each other due to Irina going through a slump and weight gain.

Now, now, now, let's keep it friendly and cool. Since you chose, with the above medical points, to exuse Irina for that "2 year period", then I, by the same token, can justifiably point out that if Tara had never had hip problems - which is virtually the ONLY reason she retired from eligible skating as early as she did - she would have CONTINUED to win the big events and improve her jump strength and adapt to all the increasing demands of more and bigger jumps. Remember - The international judges never passed judgement on the "smallness" of her jumps - she got full credit for them and justifiably so - so how can we?

I find it interesting that everyone here whose favorite skater is either Kwan or Slutskaya voices that "blip on the radar" remark to cover over the fact that THREE "blips on the radar" - Lipinski, Hughes, and Hayakara - defeated them in three straight Olympics. Actually, wasn't Irina also in the '94 Olympics won by Oksana Bauil?

I have no problem with Michelle Kwan being considered one of the top 3 all-time greatest lady skaters, or with Irina Slutskaya as one of those in the 2nd ten of the top 20. I do believe that Kwan would have the same stature she has now even if she had retired after the '98 Olympics - after all, look at the stature that Janet Lynn has now, without a World or Olympic title. Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill, Dick Button and even the ever-skeptical Christine Brennan have all stated that Janet Lynn is the greatest and most beautiful skater ever.

But I also still stand by my opinions on Tara Lipinski and Katarina Witt.

[slutskayafan21]

Actually Tara couldnt get anywhere in the sport without her triple loop-triple loop combation. Other then that she was just fairly good, nothing special, it was with that she became what she was. Without that she would have been languishing in the 4-7 range in the world and a little known American in the shadow of Kwan. It was that triple loop-triple loop combination which she needed to became the champion she briefly was, and also what made her virtually finished at 15, so it was a tradeoff. Her options, be a second tier skater for awhile and hope to improve enough to someday to be a true elite, or bid to be a champion right away with an ultra difficult combination jump that would shoot her to the top but could also mean a quick career. She chose the latter, so she ends up as a blip on the radar screen, but a brief champion of her sport nonetheless, worthy of being ranked somewhere from 21-30 all time, possibly much better then she would have ever been otherwise , or possibly less then she would have been if she had the ability to pan out to be a much stronger skater long term without the early torture learning one jump combination, who knows. It really doesnt matter much anymore.

Also given that Tara chickened out of facing Kwan in a grudge match at the preceding Worlds after the Nagano Olympics, I wouldnt be so quick to give her competitive spirit the benefit of doubt to keep going after Olympic Gold at 15.