Free Dance

rain · Dec 2, 2007

cassieandcheetah said:
I'm sorry the discussion here got a bit heated. But other than the laughs and the comments made by All That, I don't think any of us let it descend into "a nasty fight" that's less than civil as you describe it. I see that you're a Canadian, so that's perhaps why you're a bit perturbed by the so-called V/M bashing. Far from it. We all know they're excellent and know that they're talented, but I think it was more that some of us chose to be the devil's advocate and defend the merits of the french team, not all of which obviously are shared by V/M because they're much different, because I feel like this year really has belonged to V/M so not a lot of us have had the courage to step up and point out what we felt were their flaws too.

This is kinda part of the problem. I've seen so many accusations of 'you're just a super-sensitive fan of so-and-so because they're from your country,' or dismissal of people's opinions and comments because oh, that skater is from Canada or Russia or whatever and so are you so you must be a biased fan. But personally I've been turned off not just by really unjust and negative comments about V/M, but also Del/Schoen, Belbin/Agosto (who perhaps get the most criticism of all), many of the mens and ladies competitors of all nationalities, and recently, Dube and Davison in pairs (I'm still not sure what these two have ever done to deserve such ire).

Further, why shouldn't someone be able to come to the board and be enthusiastic about skaters from their home country? That's part of the fun of watching skating. It doesn't automatically negate the validity of any comments someone might make.

Sorry, I'm getting totally off-topic. I've just loved coming to this board in the past and posting about the various skaters and events, and the negativity of late has really bothered me.

dancemaster · Dec 2, 2007

shine said:
I think V/M are brilliant dancers stuck with two unbelievably dull programs (I still don't get UoC, and Valso Triste was sooo much better) this year. I don't get how a team as talented as V/M could be given programs that are just so below their level. I think I read somewhere that V/M are skating to "V/M on ice" rather than to the music, and I totally agree with that. Their music does feel like background music, as if I were watching a beautifully made montage... Thank god they have that rare kind of charm to still draw people in as much as they do. I've seen them do better and I know they CAN from their past performances. IMO they could do just about any type of OD rhythm and theme (kind of reminds me of K/O), but this year's was so not folk at all. They have so much musicality and nuances to details and these two programs just totally do not let them stand out. I hope they seriously consider a coaching change or at least get a new choreoraphy, ASAP!

I tend to agreer:agree::agree: with some of your points changing coaches that would be difficult because at present Igor seems to have a bit of political power in ice dancing.and that is worth at least 2 to 3 places on the ladder
i am really looking forward to see the battle between V/M and B/A ( what ever place they will fight for).,will be interesting where Igor will put his muscle :love:

character

skatingfan04 · Dec 2, 2007

To reply to cassienadcheetah's response to my comments on the previous page, I don't feel that V/M have been held back at all. When I said that having no compulsory would stop them from being held back, I was referring to THEIR struggles with the compulsory aginst other teams, not unfair judging. I don't feel that they were held back this season, or last season. I also don't feel, however, that they are being overscored. All in all, the judging of all of the competitions has seemed pretty fair to me lately. On a different note, I just saw D/S's FD on youtube and LOVED it. That music is so beautiful. I hope that they and V/M finish 1 and 2 at worlds, in ANY order. I'd be happy too see either one win.

cassieandcheetah · Dec 2, 2007

skatingfan04 said:
To reply to cassienadcheetah's response to my comments on the previous page, I don't feel that V/M have been held back at all. When I said that having no compulsory would stop them from being held back, I was referring to THEIR struggles with the compulsory aginst other teams, not unfair judging. I don't feel that they were held back this season, or last season. I also don't feel, however, that they are being overscored. All in all, the judging of all of the competitions has seemed pretty fair to me lately. On a different note, I just saw D/S's FD on youtube and LOVED it. That music is so beautiful. I hope that they and V/M finish 1 and 2 at worlds, in ANY order. I'd be happy too see either one win.

I'm sorry for misunderstanding you skatingfan04. For what it's worth, I absolutely loved all of V/M's programs last year (even counting the Tenessee Waltz exh.), and was just a bit disappointed by their choice of programs this year, and they way the programs seemed a bit more focused on the elements. Do you think you could see what I mean there? When I saw D/S's programs I was just struck by the way I completely forgot about counting the elements, whereas in V/M, I used to go, "wow, that was a really fast twizzle, oh their goes a lift that was really well done, etc....and then comes the circular step, etc, etc). Instead I became engrossed in the characters they were playing, and the story of the Piano they were telling. I seriously don't think I felt that way after watching an ice dance performance in a long time. I still think V/M are excellent though, and hope that they'll do well for the rest of the year as well. I'm so happy you loved D/S's program too. Let's try and keep this forum positive so that we don't let the negativity worsen any more.

all that · Dec 2, 2007

cassieandcheetah said:
Talk about hype. V and M are the ones are getting all the hype. All that, you are being quite terrible here and I refuse to respect you any for your flippant, insolent comments. "For a team that never manages to win anything?" It's a long climb getting there to the top. I'm not blaming it on bad luck either, but don't you try and dismiss them for it. And if you were curious, they won the Europeans last year.

Whoa! I was being sarcastic, cassieandcheetah! I thought that was fairly obvious with the icons I had posted, especially in combination with the post I had written earlier in the day that said that I thought DelSchoes were good skaters, and I thought all they had to do was execute better! I am well aware that they won Europeans last year, and their two GP events this year.

My post was written in response to the following line: "i love how certain teams are just like trends...that's right trends...a hype" It's obvious that this line is about V/M, and the poster is "pretending" to be vague, and I decided to "pretend to misunderstand" what he/she was saying.

I'm not quite sure why you are being so sensitive about DelSchoes recently, and so quick to get upset or jump to conclusions. And I'm not trying to say that you are the only one like this. I do agree with rain that this board used to be a fun place to come to and talk and voice opinions about various skaters, but it doesn't not seem like it is like this anymore. I'm not sure why things have become the way they are, but it does make me sad.

As for your "refusing to respect me" (and I guess your next word was to be "anymore"), well, I'm rather surprised that you would be ready to pass a judgment like that on the strength of one post (which you happened to misinterpret), but that's certainly your decision. I will keep in mind that anything I write here in the future will be completely disrespected by you.

skatingfan04 · Dec 2, 2007

cassieandcheetah said:
I'm sorry for misunderstanding you skatingfan04. For what it's worth, I absolutely loved all of V/M's programs last year (even counting the Tenessee Waltz exh.), and was just a bit disappointed by their choice of programs this year, and they way the programs seemed a bit more focused on the elements. Do you think you could see what I mean there? When I saw D/S's programs I was just struck by the way I completely forgot about counting the elements, whereas in V/M, I used to go, "wow, that was a really fast twizzle, oh their goes a lift that was really well done, etc....and then comes the circular step, etc, etc). Instead I became engrossed in the characters they were playing, and the story of the Piano they were telling. I seriously don't think I felt that way after watching an ice dance performance in a long time. I still think V/M are excellent though, and hope that they'll do well for the rest of the year as well. I'm so happy you loved D/S's program too. Let's try and keep this forum positive so that we don't let the negativity worsen any more.

I do understand what you're saying, but it seems that V/M's programs grew on me more than they did on you this season. :laugh:

I agree that there is a little bit more focus on elements, but I like the feel of the program. I didn't meen to be negative, cassieandcheetah, I just realized that you misunderstood my meaning and wanted to correct that. I'm all for a positive atmoshphere in the forum, but there's nothing wrong with differences of opinion and discussion.:yes:

As for the nastiness that has been adressed, I don't think that it is fair to bash other skaters. All of these athletes have worked incredibly hard and are very talented. That's the only way that they could have made it to this elite level. I can't do what they do, so i applaud them. It's perfectly fine for people to dislike some skates and love others, but bashing is not necessary. There are may skates that I dislike that others on this board love, and I'll admit that somke of my posts may have come off sounding like bashing, but I really try not to do it. I also don't agree with people's opinions being disregarded because they are of the same nationality of the skater in question. Yes, some national biases do exoist. I'm a Canadian, and I tend to prefer Canadian skaters to other skaters because I am exposed to them more often and I am fairly patriotic and like to cheer for the home team, so to speak. That type of national preference doesn't stop me or anyone else from liking other skaters, however. There are many Canadian skaters that I dislike, and many skaters form other countries that I prefer to some Canadians. It's not a fair reason to disagree with someone's oppinion.

cassieandcheetah · Dec 2, 2007

all that said:
Whoa! I was being sarcastic, cassieandcheetah! I thought that was fairly obvious with the icons I had posted, especially in combination with the post I had written earlier in the day that said that I thought DelSchoes were good skaters, and I thought all they had to do was execute better! I am well aware that they won Europeans last year, and their two GP events this year.

My post was written in response to the following line: "i love how certain teams are just like trends...that's right trends...a hype" It's obvious that this line is about V/M, and the poster is "pretending" to be vague, and I decided to "pretend to misunderstand" what he/she was saying.

I'm not quite sure why you are being so sensitive about DelSchoes recently, and so quick to get upset or jump to conclusions. And I'm not trying to say that you are the only one like this. I do agree with rain that this board used to be a fun place to come to and talk and voice opinions about various skaters, but it doesn't not seem like it is like this anymore. I'm not sure why things have become the way they are, but it does make me sad.

As for your "refusing to respect me" (and I guess your next word was to be "anymore"), well, I'm rather surprised that you would be ready to pass a judgment like that on the strength of one post (which you happened to misinterpret), but that's certainly your decision. I will keep in mind that anything I write here in the future will be completely disrespected by you.

I'm sorry. I honestly had no idea it was a joke. I don't think a lot of other poster's got that either (including 1795). So taking it at face value, I just thought it was kind of a mean post and was hurt, hence my "sensitive" reaction. I mean, it would sound very mean to anybody if you had meant it literally, don't you think? I just didn't know you were kidding here. I know, I was kind of surprised by the seemingly sudden change in tone from you, because I remember us sharing our views on G and G and stuff, and quite politely too! I don't know, this joke just flew completely over my head and I think also over a lot of other poeple too. And I said "any more" not "anymore." What I meant is, I wasn't going to respect you more BECAUSE you were saying things that sounded hurtful. I didnt' mean I wasn't going to respect you forever.

1795 · Dec 2, 2007

nice
i love how people (including me) get so defensive and caustic...hahaha

thought it will be unhealthy to go on...this "little" conflict here is nice to have...hearing and seeing what others think...etc

but good things must come to an end you guys...we must move on to the GPF thread...who shall we give the honors of starting a thread? :rofl:

cassieandcheetah · Dec 2, 2007

1795 said:
nice
i love how people (including me) get so defensive and caustic...hahaha

thought it will be unhealthy to go on...this "little" conflict here is nice to have...hearing and seeing what others think...etc

but good things must come to an end you guys...we must move on to the GPF thread...who shall we give the honors of starting a thread?

you should do the honor 1795. I think I'll stay away this time

backoutsideedge · Dec 3, 2007

chuckm said:
I'm not a fan of saccharine schmaltz. Ever since D/L won their first world medal with SIT, it seems as if both D/L and V/M have been sucked into a vat of warm syrup and they are loath to fish themselves out.

At least D/L have a long history of different types of FDs prior to the soppy sentimental period. V/M seem to be in a bit of a rut.

Huh? I guess you missed the FDs of V&M from 2004, 2005, and 2006? A Russian folk FD, a tango FD and a spanish FD. It's only been two years that they've done the very lyrical, smooth, floaty type of FD.

The team who seems to be in a bit of a rut is Delobel and Schoenfelder who barely received higher PCS in the FD than a team 10 years their junior.

backoutsideedge · Dec 3, 2007

bellafurr said:
You can bash V&M all you want, it won"t make D& S better skaters

Or better competitors. D&S simply do not compete well. They rarely ever have a clean competition.

backoutsideedge · Dec 3, 2007

1795 said:
dont see a big difference in modernity, i think V/M are a bit too dance-y like in their footwork...but i guess people are lovin their acting ang their lifts...that "root of true ice dancing" theory...

God forbid V&M being too dance-y in their footwork! What a ridiculous comment. You actually just complimented them there (though I doubt you realize it).

Click to expand...

backoutsideedge · Dec 3, 2007

dancemaster said:
this must be a joke ......................................the dance that Del/Shol doing at present is what ISU really wants face to face dancing interpreting a piece of music..not running around from element to element..and regarding twizzels i would like to see the younger ones trying it in the same position Del/Shol do it ..

And I'd like to see Del/Sho do the twizzles the way the young teams are doing it - catch foot/blade and different arm positions. My bet would be they couldn't do it. D&S are not good twizzlers. One or the other of them usually mess this element up.

bellafurr · Dec 3, 2007

You are right, I should have said better competators.

chuckm · Dec 3, 2007

backoutsideedge said:
Huh? I guess you missed the FDs of V&M from 2004, 2005, and 2006? A Russian folk FD, a tango FD and a spanish FD. It's only been two years that they've done the very lyrical, smooth, floaty type of FD.

I guess we've pretty much all missed those, since they were at the (non-televised) Junior level.

Since they moved up to Senior, it's schmaltz all the way.

cassieandcheetah · Dec 3, 2007

backoutsideedge said:
And I'd like to see Del/Sho do the twizzles the way the young teams are doing it - catch foot/blade and different arm positions. My bet would be they couldn't do it. D&S are not good twizzlers. One or the other of them usually mess this element up.

and I don't think Anissina and Peizirat had to do no more than 2 twizzles consecutively to win their 2002 olympic gold. I wouldn't blame Olivier and Isabelle for not being so good at it. It's just a change of times. The youngters are used to it, the older ones aren't.

all that · Dec 3, 2007

chuckm said:
I guess we've pretty much all missed those, since they were at the (non-televised) Junior level.

If your really want to see them, they are on their website: www.virtue-moir.com I think they're in the gallery.

They're also on youtube.

nippy · Dec 4, 2007

I think that FDs of V&M is gorgeous.I like music, choreography, costumes. Everything. Their first lift is breathtaking. They are really good. :love:

chuckm · Dec 4, 2007

all that said:
If your really want to see them, they are on their website: www.virtue-moir.com I think they're in the gallery.

They're also on youtube.

Why would what a team did 2-3 years ago as Juniors be of any relevance today? They aren't doing those FDs now, they're doing the same type of stuff D/L did the last two years.

I'd like to see them show some versatility AS SENIORS.

cassieandcheetah · Dec 4, 2007

chuckm said:
Why would what a team did 2-3 years ago as Juniors be of any relevance today? They aren't doing those FDs now, they're doing the same type of stuff D/L did the last two years.

I'd like to see them show some versatility AS SENIORS.

and just one word of plea. I'm a bit tired of people saying that D/S has got terrible twizzles. Yes, they are slow and not as fancy as V/M's or D/W's obviously, but hey, they get level 4 for what they do, so it must be good enough right? And I just think the new judging system has put disproportionate amount of emphasis on twizzles but pre-2002 you didn't have to do that many twizzles at all.

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