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Thread: Where Are The Clean Programs?? (could contain spoilers)

  1. #1
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    Where Are The Clean Programs?? (could contain spoilers)

    The GP events are close to a conclusion. I tried to sort out how many 'clean' long programs have been done, and the findings are hardly comforting.

    I define 'clean' programs as no major mistakes in key elements. No step-out, no touch-down, no fall, no pop, no planned-triple-to-double...

    In ladies, there's only ONE clean performance by Yu-Na Kim at 'Cup of Russia'.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc9gdB2j0o4

    In Pairs, there were only TWO clean performances by Zhangs, Pang & Tong at TEB.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ozY9dgAXIA
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6stSM...eature=related

    I haven't had the chance to go through men's... But this is quite pathetic and embarrassing. Kwan, Sluskaya, Lu Chen's 7 clean-triple programs are gone... Even the 'inconsistent' skater Sasha Cohen could routinely nail 6 clean triples in her program.Now, whoever can land 3 triples(ladies) at a GP event has a good chance of winning a gold.

    Shen & Zhao, TT&MM's squeaky clean programs are also gone...

    What's wrong with this sport?
    Last edited by netnuts; 12-01-2007 at 11:53 AM.

  2. #2
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    Like I said before, NO ONE this season is consistent. It might be a good thing, actually because it might leave the door open for underdogs should Asada or Kim trip up...(at least in theory)

    Even the 'inconsistent' skater Sasha Cohen could routinely nail 6 clean triples in her program
    I think it was more like 5.

    For the "sport" element of it, the lack of consistency can be a good thing because that means the skaters are pushing themselves harder (as it should be in sport), instead of simply playing it safe just to avoid falling/making a mistake. Like some posters like to say, you don't have to be consistent to win, you just have to be the best THAT NIGHT.

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    Couldn't Disagree More

    Netnuts, I couldn't agree more. You have brought up a topic that should be addressed by the ISU for the sake of the sport. Red Dog, I couldn't disagree more. It is not good for the sport. It's one of the biggest flaws of the new system. It gives points for attempting, but failing to land jumps, resulting in messy and unattractive programs. Consequently, skaters are attempting jumps they can't do. Pushing the envelope is not a good thing IF YOU CAN"T DO THE JUMP. It looks pathetic and undermines the sport and turns off the average viewer. Let's face it, we on this board are not average viewers and we don't like it (the majority of us). In the "old" days, a coach wouldn't let a skater even try a jump in competition if they couldn't do it 70-80% of the time. A complete clean program used to be valued because it was a thing of beauty, and it represented mental and physical toughness. Now it's a splat fest. I absolutely detest this new philosophy and believe we will lose even more viewers because of it. A clean program is more artistic because it is more beautiful if it's done perfectly. That's why it should be rewarded. I fully believe that when a skater fails to land a jump they should be penalized, or at a minimum, not awarded points for "trying."
    Last edited by kyla2; 12-01-2007 at 01:41 PM. Reason: more content

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    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    I had an impression that you are discouraged to bring in any jumps that cannot be excuted perfectly under COP. If you are downgraded, you also often get deduction in GOE, which leaves so few points.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ True, but if you can make it around the proper number of times, then it doesn't matter much if you went off the wrong edge, two-footed the landing, put a hand down, etc. On a quad toe, even if you fall (taking an extra 1 point deduction on top of -3 GOE) you still get 5.0 points -- one point more than a well-executed triple.
    Last edited by Mathman; 12-02-2007 at 08:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by netnuts View Post
    I haven't had the chance to go through men's... But this is quite pathetic and embarrassing. Kwan, Sluskaya, Lu Chen's 7 clean-triple programs are gone... Even the 'inconsistent' skater Sasha Cohen could routinely nail 6 clean triples in her program.Now, whoever can land 3 triples(ladies) at a GP event has a good chance of winning a gold.

    What's wrong with this sport?
    You are comparing apples and oranges. The rules of competition these days make it more difficult to achieve a 7 triples program.
    Let's do some maths. In the 6.0 system skaters were allowed any number of juming passes in the LP, and not 7 as it is now for the ladies.
    So the 7 clean triple programs were done at a time when :
    • skaters could schedule 8 jumping passes (1 for each triple and a double axel, so there was no need for a 3-3 or a 2A-3 to reach the number 7)
    • skaters could add extra jump elements to make up for one or several failures early on in the program.
    • underrotated jumps were not so closely pinpointed by observers and judges

    With few exceptions, the great skaters of the past would probably not have done better under CoP. Actually I think that jumpwise, the level of the current elite is better than it ever was.

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    Alain202

    You missed the point. It doesn't matter what they do, but do it clean instead of a splat fest. It does matter. I think Michelle, Irina and Sasha would have done fine under CoP.

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    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    "I define 'clean' programs as no major mistakes in key elements. No step-out, no touch-down, no fall, no pop, no planned-triple-to-double..."

    I wouldn't include that last as a major mistake.

    And the point stands. COP simultaneously encourages going for 7 triples in 7 (no more!) jumping passes, very little flexibility in jump planning means more mistakes.

    If I could change any one thing about COP it would .... still be over-punishment of cheated jumps, but second on the list would be .... counting triples and quads as equivalent for Zayak purposes, .... but third on the list would be applying the jump pass restrictions only to passes with over two revolutions, so if a skater downgrades a triple they can still try it later if they feel up to it.

  9. #9
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Patrick Chan- Cup of China
    Johnny Wier-Cup of China
    Kevin Van Der Perren -Skate Canada? whatever his first event was

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyla2 View Post
    You missed the point. It doesn't matter what they do, but do it clean instead of a splat fest. It does matter. I think Michelle, Irina and Sasha would have done fine under CoP.
    First of all my number is 707 LOL
    Secondly I do understand the point in the quotation inserted before my post and I reply to it. You should maybe reread it.

  11. #11
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    I think Yu-na Kim has been fairly consistent, six triples in one program, and 7 in another is a high standard in any system.

    I don't think one mistake makes you inconsistent, I think many mistakes makes you inconsistent.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by netnuts View Post
    The GP events are close to a conclusion. I tried to sort out how many 'clean' long programs have been done, and the findings are hardly comforting.

    I define 'clean' programs as no major mistakes in key elements. No step-out, no touch-down, no fall, no pop, no planned-triple-to-double...

    In ladies, there's only ONE clean performance by Yu-Na Kim at 'Cup of Russia'.

    In Pairs, there were only TWO clean performances by Zhangs, Pang & Tong at TEB.

    I haven't had the chance to go through men's... But this is quite pathetic and embarrassing. Kwan, Sluskaya, Lu Chen's 7 clean-triple programs are gone... Even the 'inconsistent' skater Sasha Cohen could routinely nail 6 clean triples in her program.Now, whoever can land 3 triples(ladies) at a GP event has a good chance of winning a gold.

    Shen & Zhao, TT&MM's squeaky clean programs are also gone...

    What's wrong with this sport?
    I think memory has become misty and water-coloured with time. There have always been few "clean" performances (if one uses your standards, particularly the no downgrading to doubles or singles). Clean has always been the exception rather than the norm. That's one of the things that made skaters like Kwan and Elvis Stojko such remarkable performers, they were unusually clean in their execution, rarely making mistakes on jumps. I think those standards have spoiled us a bit when we look at fields today. It's been common in years past for skaters to win, even major championships, with small mistakes in their programs. It is even more the norm with early season competitions — the difference is these are now aired on TV. Of course skaters make more mistakes early on. It is impossible to maintain a constant standard of perfection. Not even the skaters you mentioned above actually did it.

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