Michelle’s jump consistency: fact or nostalgia? | Golden Skate

Michelle’s jump consistency: fact or nostalgia?

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
In calendar year 1998 Michelle Kwan competed in 9 figure skating events and won 8 of them. Among her notable performances were:

1998 U.S. nationals, clean, 7 triples
1998 Olympics, clean, 7 triples
1998 Worlds qualifying, clean, 7 triples
1998 World pro, clean, 7 triples :love:

From 1999 to 2002, here is a list of her major competitions.

1999 Nationals, fall on triple Lutz
1999 Worlds qualifying, doubled triple Lutz
1999 Worlds, turn-out on triple Lutz, singled double Axel
1999 Skate America, fall on triple flip
1999 Skate Canada, fall on 3Lo, doubled 3T, doubled 3Lz.

2000 GP final, 1st LP, clean
2000 GP final, 2nd LP, two-footed triple Sal, douibled triple toe
2000 Nationals, fall on triple loop
2000 Worlds qualifying, clean
2000 Worlds LP, clean (7 triples, including triple-triple) :rock:
2000 Skate America two-footed triple loop, doubled triple flip
2000 Skate Canada, two-footed triple loop, doubled triple flip

2001 U.S. Nationals, double 3T in 3-3 combo
2001 GP final, doubled triple loop, doubled triple flip
2001 Words qualifying, clean
2001 Worlds LP, clean, 7 triples including 3-3 :rock:
2001 Goodwill Games two-footed triple toe, singled triple flip, doubled triple loop
2001 Skate Canada, fall on 3toe in combo, fall on 3loop in combo

2002 GP final 1st LP, fall on triple loop, doubled triple Lutz
2002 GP final 2nd LP, fall on triple toe
2002 Nationals, clean
2002 Olympics, two-footed 3T in combo, fall on triple flip
2002 Worlds qualifying, doubled triple loop
2002 Worlds LP, clean

Seven completely clean performances in four years. (Note that five of the seven were at World Championships.)

Ice is slippery. Has absence made the heart grow fonder? Or is this still a pretty impressive record of consistency despite the bobbles, compared to what we are seeing now (pretty much 0 clean programs for anyone, as noted on Netnut's thread).
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
7 clean programs in 4 years does not seem consistent. You would have to stack her record against her other competitors at the time to see if Kwan's record of consistency is impressive.
 
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Fossi

Final Flight
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Aug 23, 2003
I'm not a huge fan of Kwan's, but it seems to be fact based on her competitors jumps, and also for her own records at that time. She was an amazing competitor.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I think Michelle was quite consistent. I think the issue is that people are expecting skaters to be robots. Every skater falls and makes mistakes, the ice is slippery...Your not going to be perfect every time. (Sorry not happening)

Maybe it's just that Michelle wasn't as consistent as people may think she is... But she's still very consistent. I think when comparing Michelle's number of 7 triple programs to today's girls. I'ts important to note that COP requires a lot more difficulty out of the girls, in spins/transitions/footwork than under 6.0.. It's also important to note that in order to do 7 triples in today's system, you either have to have a triple/triple or a triple/triple sequence or you have to be able to do a double axel/triple toe.

And doing 6 triples with one double jump isn't that bad. Either is having a double footed jump as one of your 7 triples...
 
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ks777

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 15, 2003
I thought Michelle was extremely consistant even though her in betweens were lacking but still she hardly missed a jump. But then again, she didn't have many strong rivals either.
 
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rtureck

Final Flight
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Jul 26, 2003
Maybe it's just that Michelle wasn't as consistent as people may think she is... But she's still very consistent. I think when comparing Michelle's number of 7 triple programs to today's girls.
The comparision is based on pre COP data.

[qhote] I'ts important to note that COP requires a lot more difficulty out of the girls, in spins/transitions/footwork than under 6.0..[/quote]
Point taken, and why didn't the skaters under 6.0?

Her so call lack of in betweens was a strategy for the 6.0 system. Did the other skaters under 6.0 perform more in betweens?

When MK was 15 and 16, her programs were packed with in betweens. Unfortunately in world 97, she was not rewarded for that. Kwan and team adapted to less inbetweens and more clean jumps.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
Her so call lack of in betweens was a strategy for the 6.0 system. Did the other skaters under 6.0 perform more in betweens?

When MK was 15 and 16, her programs were packed with in betweens. Unfortunately in world 97, she was not rewarded for that. Kwan and team adapted to less inbetweens and more clean jumps.

I wasn't criticizing Michelle for it. I mentioned the transitions/harder footwork in spins. As a means to say if the top girls now are doing less triples than Michelle it's because of what I mentioned. It's in no ways meant to criticize Michelle.
 
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Eddie Lee

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
In remembrance, Kwan's consistency was phenomenal under the greatest pressure (barring Olympics). Slutskaya will also be remembered as a great skater. Hughes and Lipiniski (both 3/3 combo skaters who skated fearlessly) weren't that shabby. So she did have formidable competition.

What I further draw from Mathman's post is Michelle's rare-as-hen's-teeth 3/3 combos! She caught flack from her detractors regarding that lack, but she stuck with her conservative guns on the matter. Even so, the Olympic gold is the only medal missing from her great aresenal. (An analogy can be made with her 3/3 and Johnny's quad. Only less of a fuss....because Johnny has a different work ethic and much less consistency. Thus, he will not have compiled a win record approaching Kwan's. As a result, we'll expect less from him. A beautiful skater, none-the-less)
 

gsrossano

Final Flight
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Nov 11, 2006
I don't think that skating "clean" is necessarily the correct measure of consistency. My senile memory says to me that throughout her career MK usually landed 6-7 triples consistantly. Yes, she may have blown one jump out of 7 from time to time, but she never let it ruin a program and she never fell apart.
 

SusanBeth

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I agree. Even when she fell, her performances were generally good otherwise. How many truly bad skates did Michelle have over the course of her career? It's arguable, but I would say 1 or 2. When you compare that to what some of the other skaters have done, then you see why Michelle is praised for consistency.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I agree. Even when she fell, her performances were generally good otherwise. How many truly bad skates did Michelle have over the course of her career? It's arguable, but I would say 1 or 2. When you compare that to what some of the other skaters have done, then you see why Michelle is praised for consistency.

Exactly, the only time I remember seeing a Michelle skate that was filled with mistakes, was her disasterous nationals performance. Mistakes will happen once in awhile, but Michelle didn't make a ton of mistakes.
 

kyla2

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Michelle Kwan

Michelle Kwan was the greatest competitor of all time. She was also the most consistent over the longest period of time in terms of jump content and clean programs. She had some of the most formidable competition ever (Irina, Sasha, Sarah, Chen Lu and when she was younger Kristi Yamaguchi). She beat them all consistently. I LONG for those days again-clean programs. Even if she turned a triple into a double, she rarely fell. All I ask is that skaters stand up on the ice.
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Since when does doubling make a program 'not clean'?

To me, a program with a jump or two downgraded (by the skater on purpose) is clean if not optimal.

Falls and other obvious flaws (major two-footing, step outs, wonkiness, landing on wrong edge and recovering, deep forward leans, stumbles etc) are a different question altogether.

Being able to do less revolutions than originally planned is a safety feature and I'd rather not stigmatize it (though it can be awful when a skater starts downgrading everything).
 

gio

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
I thought Michelle was extremely consistant even though her in betweens were lacking but still she hardly missed a jump. But then again, she didn't have many strong rivals either.

Well, IMO she has had a lot of strong rivals troughout her career. They were Chen, Lipinski, Bonaly, Bobek, Szewczenko, Butyrskaya, Slutskaya, Hughes, Cohen, Arakawa ...
 

heyang

Record Breaker
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Jul 26, 2003
Actually, as another poster has pointed out, MK's 98 long at Nagano was good. For those of us who got to see Lyra during US Nationals, it lacked in emotion and was too restrained. However, she didn't fall during the performance and had one bobbly landing. Tara won the night because she skated with energy.

MK made the 7 triple program the standard to meet. You also have to consider her performances during the SP, which were mostly clean, as well. The worst SP for her was in 1997 which was her 1st year defending a title and when she had a growth spurt. At 97 Worlds, she lost in the SP, but I believe she actually beat Tara in the LP - just wasn't in the top 3 going into LP.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
What I further draw from Mathman's post is Michelle's rare-as-hen's-teeth 3/3 combos!
I don't think we can conclude that. Michelle did a clean triple toe/triple toe combo at...

1995 Skate America
1996 GP Final
1997 Worlds
1997 GP Final
1999 Skate America
1999 U.S. Nationals
2000 Worlds
2001 Worlds qualifying
2001 Worlds LP
2001 GP Final
2002 Worlds

I don't know how that stacks up against other skaters, past or present.
 

Fossi

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I agree that while Michelle's programs used to be packed with inbetweens, others like Irina were being rewarded for the jumps, so Team Kwan had to change the game plan and focus on jumps. Kwan, like it or not, will go down as one of the most consistent skaters of all time. I don't even know that the skaters of today's generation will beat her in consistency.
 

gio

Medalist
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Not only she was the most consistent, but she had all 5 triple jumps with perfect technique and was consistant with all 5 triple jumps. She struggled with her Lutz at the beggining, but soon she fixed it. Lately she had physical problems with loop jump.
Her 3toe/3toe were there and were :love:. May be an easy combo, but was still a wow, because of the good rythem.

In practice she did also have the 3A. If it was really needed, I'm sure she would have mastered it also for competition.

If we add also her spirals, footwork, spins, interpretation ... What a great skater she was!!! :clap: :love: :clap:
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
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Dec 28, 2006
no, she was ver consistant. when she messed up it never seemed to be at the biggest events and it was always just one mistake. maybe two. never a meltdown.
 

Kwanford Wife

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Dec 29, 2004
Michelle Kwan was the greatest competitor of all time. She was also the most consistent over the longest period of time in terms of jump content and clean programs. She had some of the most formidable competition ever (Irina, Sasha, Sarah, Chen Lu and when she was younger Kristi Yamaguchi). She beat them all consistently. I LONG for those days again-clean programs. Even if she turned a triple into a double, she rarely fell. All I ask is that skaters stand up on the ice.

I totally agree with everything... espcially the part in bold... And like another person stated she had the complete set of perfect triples... and the strongest will... her consistency was about her ability to win in the majority of situations... during her reign, a competition simply wasn't considered as important if she wasn't there... Now that's greatness...

This is my main complaint with the newbies.... some don't have complete sets of triples.... some don't know how get over it and skate... and none are putting out clean skates... its always something... downgrades, falls, pops, etc. I simply don't understand the point of doing tricks that you simply cannot skate cleanly... but I guess if points are all that matters - the fans are going to have alter the ideal of a clean program...
 
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