Cup of Russia Ladies Outrage (possible spoilers)

well I watched the cup of russia finally yesterdeay afternoon. I was horrified at the results of the Freeskate for the ladies. I understand that yu-na was ahead in the SP (another judging error, but i will not go there) but not by that much.
When Yukuri Nakano skaked that amazing freeskae, i thought she had it in the bag. instead after a good, not not impressive fresskate, yu-na wins by a HUGE margin. What about the 3 axel? if Mao landed a 3 axel that well we would be talking about it for weeks.

I am glad that Nakano made the final, but I am furious that the judges keep holding her back. The leg wrap must hurt her FAR more than it should. I can think of no other expliantion.

On another note i was SO HAPPY to see Joannie skate that well. Landing, the lutzes, the triple triple combo, she looks like the old Joannie again. Too bad she was stuck in such a difficult event and so can't make the final.

I think the skating skills, especially flow across the ice, and body line (under performance execution) are clear differences where Kim has an advantage in the component scores. Nakano is good, but Kim is better. Also interpretation. I haven't analyzed the other criteria of their performances to say whether one should have an advantage over the other or by how much, but the judging panel thought Kim was clearly better on all of them.

They also thought Rochette was slightly better on some of them, and in fact Rochette did place higher than Nakano in the free program (mostly thanks to technical scores).

Kim also got better grades of execution on her jumps, on average. Nakano had the best spins, but not by much.

http://www.isufs.org/results/gprus07/gprus07_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf

I am being sarcastic and will repeat the same line that the yuna camp has been reciting over the years. The following points will save a few pages of the ongoing discussion from resurfacing over and over again, if you bother to get in there.

1. the quality of her jumps are second to none: she gets huge GOE for the quality of the jumps. Nobody else's jumps are as good as hers.
2. she does triple flip - tripe toe. Nobody else came even close to it.
3. she does double axel and triple toe: although her blades are often stuck in the middle of the rotation. but it is irrelevant.
3. she has such extraordinary musicality
4. she has such a beautiful body line; having long limbs makes a line beautiful
5. her spiral has improved tremendously from the last season.

I can tell you nobody will beat her this season. So, just take it or leave it.

Tinymavy15 said:

well I watched the cup of russia finally yesterdeay afternoon. I was horrified at the results of the Freeskate for the ladies. I understand that yu-na was ahead in the SP (another judging error, but i will not go there) but not by that much.
When Yukuri Nakano skaked that amazing freeskae, i thought she had it in the bag. instead after a good, not not impressive fresskate, yu-na wins by a HUGE margin. What about the 3 axel? if Mao landed a 3 axel that well we would be talking about it for weeks.

I am glad that Nakano made the final, but I am furious that the judges keep holding her back. The leg wrap must hurt her FAR more than it should. I can think of no other expliantion.

On another note i was SO HAPPY to see Joannie skate that well. Landing, the lutzes, the triple triple combo, she looks like the old Joannie again. Too bad she was stuck in such a difficult event and so can't make the final.

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Yukari had two jumps downgraded. That's one of the problems with "the wrap is it can lead to underrotation."

As for Yu-na being ahead in the short program. Yes, Yu-na singled her double axel, and she got punished for it. But Yu-na also landed a triple/triple and Yukari didn't.

I don't know how fast Yukari is, but Yu-na has great flow accross the ice. Also Yu-na does have great jumping technique, and tends to get high GOE of execution on all of her jumps.. Yukari well doesn't get high Goe's on her jumps. Yukari also flutzs. If you notice though Yukari doesn't get minus GOE for her wrapped triples either. She just doesn't get extra GOE for them, which is fair because wrapped jumps are ugly.

bekalc said:

Yukari had two jumps downgraded. That's one of the problems with "the wrap is it can lead to underrotation."

As for Yu-na being ahead in the short program. Yes, Yu-na singled her double axel, and she got punished for it. But Yu-na also landed a triple/triple and Yukari didn't.

I don't know how fast Yukari is, but Yu-na has great flow accross the ice. Also Yu-na does have great jumping technique, and tends to get high GOE of execution on all of her jumps.. Yukari well doesn't get high Goe's on her jumps. Yukari also flutzs. If you notice though Yukari doesn't get minus GOE for her wrapped triples either. She just doesn't get extra GOE for them, which is fair because wrapped jumps are ugly.

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I know that Midori managed to hide her leg wraps. Can Yukari learn to do the same? I imagine that she would want to cause it would really improve her scores.

Maybe because there is much much more to skating then who landed a triple axel and who didnt. Even in jump difficulty Yu-Nas harder combinations make up and more for the triple axel.

Tinymavy15 said:

well I watched the cup of russia finally yesterdeay afternoon. I was horrified at the results of the Freeskate for the ladies. I understand that yu-na was ahead in the SP (another judging error, but i will not go there) but not by that much.
(

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I am horrified by most things CoP
I was flipping channels and came in in the middle of Yu-Na Kim's free skate. I didn't know it was Yu-Na Kim however (haven't seen her this season). I thought "Well that skater has some potential, if only she could fix some of her junior-ish tendencies." Her jumps in the air were lovely things. The landings seemed a little insecure at times. She had some moments when she connected well with the music. However her hunched stroking posture and pumping strokes were distracting as was her tendency to telegraph her jumps (or at least drop all pretense at choreography well prior to the jumps).
At least from what I saw I would have never figured her for the new goddess of all things skating.hwell:Mine is not to reason why...mine is to either embrace CoP or stick with local skating.

Yu Na is the new queen of womens skating. If she stays healthy she will dominate the next 3 years, and if she chooses to stay in she could dominate alot longer. Her jumps are the most exceptional quality, she has great jump difficulty with the triple-triple combos, her spins are excellent, her footwork is terrific, her spirals are much improved, her musicality are superb, she has wonderful lines due partialy to her long limbs, and she moves with such elegance. Her basic skating and run of edge is also superb.

Nakano is a very good skater but she is not even close to up to beating Yu-Na at the moment unless Yu-Na totally bombed. Nakano is skating well enough to have a fighting shot of maybe a bronze at worlds, and for her that is great. Be happy with that.

I enjoyed the performances of both ladies, but IMO Kim is on a completely different artistic level from Nakano, and Nakano's leg wrap has nothing to do with it. To put it simply: Nakano skates TO the music, Kim WITH the music, and what a difference that makes.

If Nakano hadn't had two downgrades, she might have scored close to 120 and placed second in the FS, but still nowhere near Kim.

I think it must be said how much Nakano has improved since last season. She relates to her music and the audience now, and that has resulted in higher PCS scores. She also seems to be more secure in her jumps, and her spins are amazing.

Kim has emerged in a class of her own this year, and that is part of the reason why Mao Asada became so unglued recently when she got deductions for flutzing and underrotation. Probably due to growth reasons, Mao has lost consistency on her 3A, so she no longer has that edge over Kim. Kim doesn't flutz or lip and she is rarely dinged for urs, so those deductions for Asada could mean the difference between gold and silver.

capcomop said:

I am horrified by most things CoP
I was flipping channels and came in in the middle of Yu-Na Kim's free skate. I didn't know it was Yu-Na Kim however (haven't seen her this season). I thought "Well that skater has some potential, if only she could fix some of her junior-ish tendencies."

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You're a skating fan and you didn't recognise Yu-Na Kim?

Tinymavy15 said:

On another note i was SO HAPPY to see Joannie skate that well. Landing, the lutzes, the triple triple combo, she looks like the old Joannie again. Too bad she was stuck in such a difficult event and so can't make the final.

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I am SO tired of hearing that Joannie was stuck in difficult events and that's why she didn't make the final.

Joannie would have made the final had she not skated two subpar SPs. At CoR, her fall in the SP put her nearly 10 points behind Nakano and even a PB free skate couldn't make up the difference. She lost out on silver at Skate Canada (to Nakano again) by 1.25 points and at CoR by 2.86 points.

Joannie has acquired a very bad habit of going into the SP with visible trepidation, as if she is expecting something to go wrong, and inevitably it does. She looks tentative, doesn't attack her jumps, makes mistakes and then gives up on the performance, so that the whole program becomes less than the sum of its parts. The judges pick up on that, and that's why her SP PCS marks are so low.

I think that Yukari is tremendously talented, and I am happy for her progress, but as far as I can see, Yu-Na is on a very special level, and certainly deserved to win. I dubbed Sasha Cohen "the divine Sasha" some time ago, and Yu-Na to me, also deserves the title "divina".

Some ladies have gorgeous style, but cannot manage the jumps consistently; Alissa Czisny, for example. Those very few who can excel in the beauty of their skating *and* include technically difficult content successfully, have my utmost admiration. Yu-Na is in that category. I only hope that she can avoid injury in the future. For now, I shall marvel at the amazing delicacy and grace she presents, along with her athletic prowess. It is easy to believe that she works very hard to achieve so much.

Tinymavy15 said:

well I watched the cup of russia finally yesterdeay afternoon. I was horrified at the results of the Freeskate for the ladies. I understand that yu-na was ahead in the SP (another judging error, but i will not go there) but not by that much.
When Yukuri Nakano skaked that amazing freeskae, i thought she had it in the bag. instead after a good, not not impressive fresskate, yu-na wins by a HUGE margin. What about the 3 axel? if Mao landed a 3 axel that well we would be talking about it for weeks.

I am glad that Nakano made the final, but I am furious that the judges keep holding her back. The leg wrap must hurt her FAR more than it should. I can think of no other expliantion.

On another note i was SO HAPPY to see Joannie skate that well. Landing, the lutzes, the triple triple combo, she looks like the old Joannie again. Too bad she was stuck in such a difficult event and so can't make the final.

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I noticed how improved Yukari's has grown this season. I had such a low opinion of her before few years ago when she was one of the three or four girls in the Japanese team that included Fumie, Miki and Shizuka. Yukari never struck me as graceful or to have the potential to become a skater with finesse as she's shown us at CoR. I remember Dick Button would berate (?) her wrapped legs whenever she'd come on. But at CoR this Yukari was graceful, sophisticated and so elegant despite the fact that she doesn't have the longest legs.

The difference between Yukari and Yu-na you are talking about is the inherent difference between a 17 year old and a 22 years old. The way Yukari skates, the way she carries herself, is more mature than Yu-na. Yu-na is seventeen and Yukari is twenty-two; Yukari is more lady-like and it showed in their presentations. It's like, here you have a skater who is not stellar but above average, give her a few years to mature and you have Yukari as she was at CoR. Yu-na, on-the-other hand, is a rare young stellar skater whose only hold-back is her girlishness compared to mature Yukari. You can't do anything about it because a 17 year old girl just doest NOT have the same kind of poise and finesse as a 22 year old. Come to think of it, I don't think ANY other skater had that feminine maturity that Yukari showed at CoR. I thought she looked smashing in her salmon costume too.

But overall skating ability and difficulty of program-wise, I'd put Yu-na over Yukari. I think Yu-na will surpass Yukari's poise and grace in a few years. Also, you can't even begin to compare Yu-na at 17 to Yukari when she was 17. I'm more interested in how the ranking will turn out if Yukari lands her triple axel fully rotated at GPF and if Mao pops hers or falls on hers. Will Yukari be ahead of Mao? Yukari has the maturity but Mao has ballerina-like posture that somehow camouflages her immaturity.

chuckm said:

I enjoyed the performances of both ladies, but IMO Kim is on a completely different artistic level from Nakano, and Nakano's leg wrap has nothing to do with it. To put it simply: Nakano skates TO the music, Kim WITH the music, and what a difference that makes.

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Completely agree. While musicality is most important to me as I understand figure skating, I do understand quads, 3As and acrobatic spirals. Your comparing the best musical way is to put the difference between skating to or with the music. Kim is definitely with the music as was Kwan all those years and winning over all those competitors who had bigger tricks. It was simply musicality.

Joe

Truthfully I prefer Yukari's skating to Yu-Na's as I feel that Yukari has much more connection to the audience and music. However, I do thing that Yu-Na has improved a lot in that area. I didn't like her skating at all last year, but this year I find myself really enjoying her SP. Technically she is one of the best out there, but I don't think she matches Nakano when it comes to having that connection. I think in a year or two she'll be there though and if Yukari can step it up technically I think we'll have a real rivalry on our hands.

chuckm said:

I am SO tired of hearing that Joannie was stuck in difficult events and that's why she didn't make the final.

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I don't understand how you can claim otherwise when it's a fact that Yu-Na Kim, Mao Asada, and Yukari Nakano were the 3 highest point scorers in the ladies' Grand Prix Series.

Joannie would have made the final had she not skated two subpar SPs. At CoR, her fall in the SP put her nearly 10 points behind Nakano and even a PB free skate couldn't make up the difference. She lost out on silver at Skate Canada (to Nakano again) by 1.25 points and at CoR by 2.86 points.

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True, but don't you also realize that had Joannie skated as well as she did against Yu-Na, Mao, and Yukari, then certainly if she had been placed in the other events against the likes of Kimmie, Caroline, Carolina, Sarah, and Miki, given the way that they all performed, that Rochette would most likely be going to the Final instead of them based on how strongly she was able to come back in the LP and given the fact that she was the 4th highest point scorer overall in the ladies. It's not rocket science to realize that Joannie would most likely have won and at the least taken silver if she had been in the less competitive events. She more than likely would have won Skate America as there is no trace of under-rotation or wrong edge takeoffs in Joannie's jumps. Cup of China was a complete splat-fest, no question about it. Joannie likely would have won silver behind Yu-Na. Joannie likely would also have taken silver at TEB behind Mao as well. There's no question to me that she would have won NHK given the low standard of competition there.

You don't know how Joannie would have performed in the other events. She might have bombed both SP and FS. The fact remains that Joannie missed the final because of her SPs. She should have been able to beat Nakano at both events, but she didn't---because she got too far behind after the SP.

This is the third year in a row that Joannie has missed out on the final, and in the past 3 years, she missed out on the top 6 at Worlds as well. And at the past 3 Worlds, she messed up the SP, sometimes very badly.

Joannie has the power to change that. Moaning over getting a 'bad' set of GPs isn't the way to do it. Even if her fans won't acknowledge that Joannie herself has to take responsibility for her failure to make the GPF, I am sure that Joannie herself knows why she didn't make the GPF and accepts that responsibility. I just hope that she's going to take steps to change the way she approaches her SPs. She must do that if she wants to meet her goal of making the Olympic podium in 2010.

Well you don"t know how she would have skated either. Joannie does"t flutz , lip underroate or cheat on her jumps, so if she ever does a clean short program i hope she gets rewarded. As far as missing the G P Final thats the way it goes.

chuckm said:

Joannie has the power to change that. Moaning over getting a 'bad' set of GPs isn't the way to do it. Even if her fans won't acknowledge that Joannie herself has to take responsibility for her failure to make the GPF, I am sure that Joannie herself knows why she didn't make the GPF and accepts that responsibility. I just hope that she's going to take steps to change the way she approaches her SPs. She must do that if she wants to meet her goal of making the Olympic podium in 2010.

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I don't recall Joannie moaning over bad set of GPs. It is her whiny fans including myself in Canada doing it - there is some truism to it too.

I second that she has in herself the capability to make it to the Olympic podium and hope she brings out sooner than later. Joannie can do it.

I think Yu-Na is lovely. But her spirals could stand much improvement- she lacks stretch and flexibility. Likewise her spins are a bit over-rated, especially her layback which is actually downright ugly. That said, I agree with those that say her future is bright indeed.