Figure skater Meissner accepts criticism, but can her fans? (Hersh article)

visaliakid · Dec 20, 2007

Figure skater Meissner accepts criticism, but can her fans? (Hersh article)

Figure skater Meissner accepts criticism, but can her fans? - by Philip Hersh, Los Angeles Times

Mathman · Dec 20, 2007

Emperor Ottavio's New Clothes: the Code of Points judging system...

:chorus::chorus:

Visaliakid, I think I'll transfer this thread to the Edge, where it will get more attention, OK?

feraina · Dec 20, 2007

I don't like this guy's attitude... Here're some of my thoughts reading this "rebuttal":

-- It's highly unlikely that Alissa will push Kimmie off the Worlds team. Even Kimmie's worst score this season is 10 points higher than Alissa's best (and Kimmie's best is 40 points higher than Alissa's worst).

-- Transitions are fun! So are spins! And they're "good" skating. What does he mean it's "junk"? I hope he's wrong that ISU will take out 1 of the 4 spins in the LP (that'd be quite a radical move, wouldn't it?). One of the pros of CoP is that it refocused some emphasis on non-jump elements like spins, spirals, step sequences, and transitions. I think they make skating programs more exciting to watch, not less!

-- Why is he so bitter?? What's the real reason behind his sour-ness?

Mathman · Dec 20, 2007

feraina said:
Why is he so bitter?? What's the real reason behind our his sour-ness?

Evidently Hersh wrote an earlier article critical of Kimmie and has been deluged by email from Meissketeers ever since. We all know how figure skating fans can be when they are up in arms defending their faves. :laugh:

Mr. Hersh caught a lot of grief from Kwan fans near the end of Michelle's career, when she began to slip out of the top ranks. Hersh said so and pretty much got his head handed to him by us Kwaniacs (ironic, because Hersh himself is a big Michelle fan).

I doubt if he is really mad about it. If he gets a lot of ranting emails, that just shows that people read his columns.

visaliakid · Dec 20, 2007

Mathman said:
:chorus::chorus:

Visaliakid, I think I'll transfer this thread to the Edge, where it will get more attention, OK?

The move to this section is fine... wasn't totally sure which section was better... so thanks.

I know some folks don't want to see any of the current required elements taken from LP next season, but personally I hope they do and allow all the skaters a bit of room to breath and add some choreography, and a few more connecting moves to their programs. I like the new scoring system but it does need refining yet, both in requirements and in points assigned to elements.

feraina · Dec 20, 2007

Mathman, thanks for your explanation. I kinda read between the lines that he was inundated by Kimmie's fans' protest letters. What I don't understand is why he was so down on Kimmie in the first place.

And even if he was down on Kimmie for good reasons, what was the point of his writing negative articles about Kimmie (or US skating)? Aside from the fact that it surely turns off the few casual fans left of figure skating (a sport he proclaims to care about), from a journalistic point of view, you don't really want to belittle/deride the sport that you want to write about, because it helps to dwindle the little readership there is for your work.

I have to say, he's coming off not only bitter, but short-sighted too (IMHO).

If they want to take away a spin, then I hope they'll proportionally increase the base value of the remaining three spins. Otherwise, it will tilt the scoring in the direction of jumps more, and discourage skaters from putting out quality spins. If skaters can put out their three best spins and leave at home the filler 4th, then I'm all for it -- but ISU should then increase the base values of the three spins by 33% each. That'll keep the overall importance of spins relative to other elements the same.

Personally, I also prefer to see more quality than quantity in terms of spins, as well as less "busy" choreography. Much as I am impressed by Mao's intricate choreography this year, I find her programs a little too busy. I really don't want that impression, because I like her as a skater and person, but I can't help it.

ChrisH · Dec 21, 2007

Since its introduction in 2003, very few top skaters have pull off a "clean" short and long program in the same event. (By clean, I mean one with virtually all the content the skater planned as well as no major errors in the execution of the program.)

visaliakid said:
I know some folks don't want to see any of the current required elements taken from LP next season, but personally I hope they do and allow all the skaters a bit of room to breath and add some choreography, and a few more connecting moves to their programs. I like the new scoring system but it does need refining yet, both in requirements and in points assigned to elements.

As I've suggested elsewhere, it would be better to add 15 seconds to the senior ladies and junior ladies free skate. That would make their alloted times proportional to that given the senior men and junior men. That would help the ladies have cleaner and more artistic programs. During this season's GPs, the ladies had over 4 times (!) as many falls in the free skate than they had in the short program.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/content/FreeSkatingElements.pdf

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 21, 2007

Family and friends are probably the fans of Meissner along with casual town folk fans in the Baltimore region because she is in the local news often.

If Golden Skate is any guide to the fandom of Meissner, I would need to see it. She doesn't come near the legion of fans of Cohen not to mention Kwan Most fans of figure skating, including me, see her as a nice Lady who can skate competitively and be up in the top ten not unlike Angela Nikidinov. Angela was also a top10 skater but even she had more fans than Kimmie. Sorry, just not overwhelmed with the Meissner's multitude of fans.

I'm not sure if, as Hersch says, that she is slipping. I would think more of saying that she has slipt during the GP season except when I remember her at SA, she showed improvement in her PCS. Kimmie is a plain skater - a good one, and will rack up points under CoP. She will never replace Kwan so why look for that. I don't see it in any crop of the current Asian Ladies either.

I can not speculate on what is going on in the Meissner Camp or in the Meissner head, and I can not go along with Hersch who lost his beloved Kwan in Torino. I will watch the US Nats carefully.

Joe

fairly4 · Dec 21, 2007

Personally, i don't think he was hard on Kimmie. he was just stating the facts as he saw them. Which was correct, outside of skate American she hasn't won against Mao, Yu-na and Miki since they skated.

When she did win, they wasn't in the 2006 world. (nothing against her winning)she wasn't suppose to it was Sasha, Joannie, Fumie most people was looking at. She wasn't in the picture.

When Mao, Yu-na & Miki came into the picture (outside of Skate America)Kimmie hasn't won against them.
Her skating is okay, but not great. In order to beat them, she has to be great.
Improve on what she has, in technique and artistry. Because right now (in my opinion) she isn't on the same level as Mao & Yu-na, she and miki are at the same level but not on Mao and Yu-na's level.
The Cop isn't the end all be all that everyone made it out to be. The COP has always been manipulated since its inceptions in 2003/2004--just like figures was.

Joesitz (RIP) · Dec 21, 2007

fairly4 said:
Personally, i don't think he was hard on Kimmie. he was just stating the facts as he saw them. Which was correct, outside of skate American she hasn't won against Mao, Yu-na and Miki since they skated.

When she did win, they wasn't in the 2006 world. (nothing against her winning)she wasn't suppose to it was Sasha, Joannie, Fumie most people was looking at. She wasn't in the picture.

When Mao, Yu-na & Miki came into the picture (outside of Skate America)Kimmie hasn't won against them.
Her skating is okay, but not great. In order to beat them, she has to be great.
Improve on what she has, in technique and artistry. Because right now (in my opinion) she isn't on the same level as Mao & Yu-na, she and miki are at the same level but not on Mao and Yu-na's level.
The Cop isn't the end all be all that everyone made it out to be. The COP has always been manipulated since its inceptions in 2003/2004--just like figures was.

I don't think you are correct about Hersch. He was talking about her slipping and possibly being off the podium at US Nats- nothing to do with Asian Ladies. You are bringing up all those topics which have been discussed ad infinitum

It seems to me Hirsch was speaking of Kimmie in regard to the US Nats and your favorite Asian Ladies are not in that competition. Can you comment on Hirsch and his thoughts about the US Nats?

Joe

ManyCairns · Dec 21, 2007

Whoa, Hersh!

The only really objectionable thing I found in Hersh's piece is this:

" ... am saddened to see the sport in what seems to be an irreversible slide because of a dearth of talent."

Whoa, Hersh! Definitely see skating in a slide, not sure if it's "irreversible," but I really do not at all think dearth of talent is the issue here.

Just a few examples:, the talented Asian ladies and pairs; the likes of Weir, Lambiel, Lysacek, & Joubert in the men; ice dance is HUGE right now with at least 4 really great teams; the ladies also have talented women from several countries (in addition to the Asian Armada) who are enjoyable to watch. Plus, there's Zhang, Nagasu, Wagner, Flatt, and I will still include Meissner as a "talented skater," from right here in the US.

Definitely think skating's in a "slide," at least as far as commercial viability in certain countries like the US, but I don't think we can at all claim it's because there's a dearth of talent. Again, I would certainly call Kimmie herself talented, even if she's currently in a slump re: her jumps, based on her accomplishments to date.

NorthernLite · Dec 21, 2007

Joesitz said:
Family and friends are probably the fans of Meissner along with casual town folk fans in the Baltimore region because she is in the local news often.

Well, I'm a fan and I've never even been to Baltimore.

And for the record, I thought Hersh was an idiot long before the article in question. He's really no better a writer or any better informed than lots of people babbling on the internet. It's just that he gets paid well to do it.

decker · Dec 21, 2007

The original column and the follow-up each contained one brief mention of U.S. Nats. The remainder concerned Kimmie's overall poor performance since 06 Worlds, and several of the Asian ladies are mentioned by name. So I don't see any need to place artificial restrictions on my reaction to the columns.

Obviously Kimmie has had problems, but I don't know that this means she is incapable of delivering top 3 performances ever again. She seems to have gone through a growth spurt, and she recently passed one of those major milestones in life (finishing high school and entering the allegedly grown-up world). Because there are several talented ladies coming up both in the U.S. and internationally, she needs to act quickly. But she has already said she will re-think her training and make some changes ... so it would hardly be a surprise if she does improve.

ITA that Hersh's diss of the entire talent pool is lacking in factual basis. And it annoys me that he tries to make light of misrepresenting Kimmie's record.

Yes, he made only one error, and it was a small one in that correcting it didn't negate his basic claim of a slump. But he seems to suffer from the same brittleness of which he accuses Meissner's fans.

Criticism of errors is part of the territory if you choose to write for the public. Especially when you choose to be a nattering nabob of negativity, you will be burdened with great pressure to be 100% accurate. Not 99%.

Susan

Penny · Dec 21, 2007

NorthernLite said:
Well, I'm a fan and I've never even been to Baltimore. And for the record, I thought Hersh was an idiot long before the article in question. He's really no better a writer or any better informed than lots of people babbling on the internet. It's just that he gets paid well to do it.

I'm a journalist. We're paid, but not "well."

Mathman · Dec 21, 2007

IMO criticizing a prominent ahtlete is, as Northernlite says, what Mr. Hersh gets paid for.

But using his bully pulpit for a testy response to figure skating fans seems petulant and unprofessional.

cassieandcheetah · Dec 21, 2007

Mathman said:
IMO criticizing a prominent ahtlete is, as Northernlite says, what Mr. Hersh gets paid for.

But using his bully pulpit for a testy response to figure skating fans seems petulant and unprofessional.

I don't understand...why are you guys so enraged by Mr. Hersch when in fact he indeed is making some valid points? Kimmie has indeed failed to live up to the expectations raised since her Worlds 2006 victory, and it's obvious that she's not on the same level as Mao or Yu-Na. That's all he said, just plain facts, and you make it seem as though he's perpetuating a wrongful rumour! I don't see this as sensational journalism at all.

Mathman · Dec 21, 2007

cassieandcheetah said:
I don't understand...why are you guys so enraged by Mr. Hersch when in fact he indeed is making some valid points?

That's what I am saying in my post that you quoted. His points about Kimmie and about the CoP are fine. It is his job to give his opinions on such matters.

What I don't like is a big bold headline berating Kimmie's fans.

Kimmie's fans are not public figures or prominent athletes. There is no reason for Mr. Hersh to attack them in print, even if they attacked him first in emails.

Receiving emails saying, "You're an idiot, Kimmie is the greatest!" is part of the op-ed business. This should be water off a duck's back for a journalist with the experience of Mr. Hersh.

Joesitz said:
Family and friends are probably the fans of Meissner along with casual town folk fans in the Baltimore region because she is in the local news often.

If Golden Skate is any guide to the fandom of Meissner, I would need to see it. She doesn't come near the legion of fans of Cohen not to mention Kwan

Maybe not Kwanlike, but at last count there were 2325 posts on the Kimmie Meissner Forum. You can also check out fan sites like the Kimmie Meissner Fan center, Kimmie Meissner On Line, KimmieMeissner.Net, MimmieMeissner.US ad Kimmiemeissner.com.

Go Kimmie! :rock:

attyfan · Dec 21, 2007

fairly4 said:
Personally, i don't think he was hard on Kimmie. he was just stating the facts as he saw them. Which was correct, outside of skate American she hasn't won against Mao, Yu-na and Miki since they skated.
...

Part of my problem with the Hersh article was his selective use of the facts. For example:

Why, for example, was Kimmie's failure to make the GPF last season (against Mao and Yu-Na) proof of a decline, whereas the fact that she made it this year not proof of improvement?

Hersh took the trouble to find out the physical problems afflicting Miki Ando, but didn't do the same for Kimmie -- even though Kimmie may well be in the middle of a growth spurt, he puts her problems up to "lack of motivation".

That Kimmie hasn't won much against Mao, Yu-na or Miki is comparatively meaningless -- it took Irina Slutskaya many years (from m 1994 World Juniors until the GP before Worlds in 2000) before she finally bested Michelle Kwan at any event -- and didn't do it at Worlds until 2002.

If he thinks it his "mission" to criticize Kimmie, fine -- but do it honestly, reviewing all the facts, and give Kimmie the same treatment as given to other skaters.

sillylionlove · Dec 21, 2007

very well said attyfan!!

dizzydi7 · Dec 21, 2007

Hersh article

Am I mistaken or is Hersh implying that the decline of figure skating is due to the COP? That can't be true because figure skating has been in decline since way before the COP when his beloved Kwan was still skating.

Even Irina, Michelle and Sasha couldn't keep the decline at bay.

Dizzy

Figure skater Meissner accepts criticism, but can her fans? (Hersh article)

visaliakid

Mathman

feraina

Mathman

visaliakid

feraina

ChrisH

Joesitz (RIP)

fairly4

Joesitz (RIP)

ManyCairns

NorthernLite

decker

Penny

Mathman

cassieandcheetah

Mathman

attyfan

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sillylionlove

dizzydi7

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