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Thread: Gay Marriage

  1. #16
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Mathman = I definitely see Bush as using the "Rally Round the Flag" as the main thrust for his reelection. His economic recovery so far has not been happening (unemployment still way up) and many of those other issues you mentioned he is indeed non committal. He's not a shoo in.

    Joe

  2. #17
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    I am for gay marriage.

    However... at the risk of being called a homophobe and a chauvinist-in-reverse... I just don't know about gay adoption. Definitely, if one gay partner has a child, I think the other partner should be recognized as having legal rights to that child. Also (this is where chauvinism comes in)... ashamed as I am to admit it... I have no problem with lesbian couples adopting, but do have a problem (on emotional level) with, say, the idea of two guys raising a daughter. I know, I know, there are plenty of single fathers who do wonderful jobs with their daughters...

    Anyway, that's my semi-homophobic semi-chauvinist two cents. I guess if there were a referendum on gay marriage today I would vote "yes"; for a referendum on gay adoption, I would leave the answer blank.

    BTW, just out of curiosity, do all people who have responded that they support gay marriage also support gay adoption?

  3. #18
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I do not see any reason to think that gay or straight, men or women, would be likely to have better or worse parenting skills than anyone else. I wasn't completely clear on what the "emotional" component of your reservations to gay adoptions is. If you mean that you fear that gay men might be more likely than someone else to be abusive or neglectful, again I don't see any correlation between these failings of character and sexual orientation.

    On the other hand, there is something to be said for boys and girls growing up in a home that has both an adult male and an adult female roll model. Boys that grow up in homes without fathers, for instance, have a hard time learning what it is to be a man. Disproportionately, they end up as troubled teenagers or adult criminals. (Speaking of Chauvinism, sociologists and behavioral psychologists have not devoted nearly as much effort to studying the effects of girls growing up in a home where one parent is absent. They're only girls, after all, why waste our money studying their problems.)

    Many adoptions, however, are of children that nobody else wants. If the choice is between living with two kind parents who are devoted to each other and to the child, or growing up as a ward of the state shuffled back and forth among various public institutions and foster care facilities, the sexual orientation of the prospective parents seems a minor issue.

    Mathman

  4. #19
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    I wasn't completely clear on what the "emotional" component of your reservations to gay adoptions is. If
    No, no, no. All I meant is that I am opposed to some gay adoptions emotionally rather than through clear reasoning.

  5. #20
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Joesitz
    I don't think Bush really gives a damn about gays getting formerly married (think of the increase in the economy). However, he owes a lot to the christian fundamentalists who gave him their vote. He owes these religious people who have their own way of reading the bible. OK for straights to get married and divorced. They apparently sin but it's not important.

    Joe
    :rolleyes: We prefer to be known as Southern Baptists


    and I don't want to get in the Biblical part of this discussion so I'll butt out before I do get someone mad...

    I am not a gay basher, nor is the Southern Baptist Convention or any other Religious organization...

    And in most church settings Divorce is also a "sin" so don't pull that "straights are better" talk that the church supposedly adopted...

    ok I'm going to stop...


    however I'd like to point out that Bush is also a proclaiming Christian, so I don't think he "owes" the Church anything... he's capable of thinking on his own, no matter what Dan Rather says...

    That reminded me... There are no illegitimate children, only illegitimate parents. I don't remember who said it, but I love that quote.
    ITA!

  6. #21
    Sal-Kowabunga!
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    Weighing in on the question of gay adoption, even tho I haven't yet said I have no problem with gay marriage. With or without "marriage," I think that a stable, mature and loving parent or parents is more important than whether that parent is male or female and whether a couple is 2male or 2female or 1ofeach.

    I thought that story on ABC (think it was Diane Sawyer) where Rosie O'Donnell "came out" on tv in support of gay adoption said some interesting things. I'm with Mathman, many of the children available for adoption are difficult to place. That story on ABC (forget when it was - at least a year or two ago) highlighted a male couple who were good foster parents for difficult children. The State of Florida trusted them with the kids, but when they tried to adopt a boy with HIV, who they had been parenting practically since his birth, they ran into discrimination.

    However, Ptichka, I can certainly see the emotional component against letting gay men adopt. For so long, we have been hearing so much about priest pedophiles. Pedophilia is statistically more common with male offenders and the emotional costs for the child are so high that it does give one pause. In theory, if prospective parents are screened adequately, it shouldn't happen. But it does and not just for adoptive parents. I guess it becomes a chance that society takes in adoption. But there are plenty of pedophiles who have children, are related to children, live near children or put themselves in a position to be near children.

    I also think there is a risk of discrimination - against the parents, the children, the family as a whole. As for role models.....a child who gets the basics of love and caring and ethics should have the tools to adjust to a lack of a father or mother. I think all children are better off with parents. Period.

    Whew! Guess I'll jump off the soapbox and take a breath!
    Last edited by JOHIO2; 08-05-2003 at 04:39 PM.

  7. #22
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    My church just got a gay bishop.
    Our church is somewhat divided on the subject but I'm happy for the guy.
    The soon-to-be Rt. Reverend Gene Robinson is currently in a commited relationship of about 13 years.
    Our church currently does not really have gay marriage as such.
    Because of this many of our gay clergy have chosen celibacy.
    I hope that he can get beyond the reaction to his sexuality and on with God's work.

  8. #23
    Custom Title heyang's Avatar
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    What does pedophilia have to do with being gay? I've never heard of any studies linking homosexuality to pedophilia. I realize a lot of the recent church abuse cases relate to priests assaulting boys, but these men aren't gay - they are sick. With regards to the church, I think the priests have more 'access' to boys then they do girls.

    With regards to 'gay' adoptions, nothing wrong there. IMO, I think they may be more conscientious about teaching children the value of an open mind. How many opposite-sex-parents teach their kids to discriminate against 'homos' as compared to 'homos' teaching their kids to hate 'straights? The value of an open mind is priceless.

    As for role models, there's nothing wrong with a loving aunt/uncle, grandparent or close family friend to fill in the so-called missing gender appropriate role.

  9. #24
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    Well said Heyang

  10. #25
    ~ Figure Skating Is My Passion ~ Ladskater's Avatar
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    Gay Marriage

    Changed my mind about commenting.
    Last edited by Ladskater; 08-06-2003 at 01:44 AM.

  11. #26
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Just to clarify: I do NOT beleive that gay parents would be potential pedophiles any more than straight ones. I guess I just cannot imagine a girl being raised in an environment surrounded predominantly by males, with potentially very little female input. I mean, seriously guys, who would teach her about fashion and make up and stuff, right :D ?

  12. #27
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Ptichka
    I mean, seriously guys, who would teach her about fashion and make up and stuff, right :D ?
    But that's the very thing that gay men are better at than straight men! I hope that's not a stereotype, but, a little bit OT, are you guys watching "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy?"

    Mathman

  13. #28
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    QUOTE]. IMO, I think they may be more conscientious about teaching children the value of an open mind. How many opposite-sex-parents teach their kids to discriminate against 'homos' as compared to 'homos' teaching their kids to hate 'straights? The value of an open mind is priceless.[/QUOTE]

    ITA. You find more straights with homophobia then homosexuals with a fear/hatered of straights.

    Re: Queer Eye For the Straight Guy - I think that show is more additcing and more fun then any of the other reality/make-over shows out there .
    Laura

  14. #29
    What if the Hokey Pokey IS what it's all about?
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    I have no problem with gay marriages or gays adopting children. People seem to have this stereotype that behind gay doors it's party central with promiscuity on constant display. Ridiculous. A good loving relationship is what counts--be it straight or gay.

    As for raising children--a loving home and supportive parents should be the prerequisite, not sexual orientation.

    eliza88

  15. #30
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    Pedophilia is definitely more common among straight men. I can't remember the exact stats. The gender of the child doesn't often matter to the abuser, just that the person is young and powerless.

    I am in favour of both marriage and adoption, and can't believe this is still an issue. Let people live their lives.

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