Pairing 14 year old girls with 20 year old guys

beep_beep · Jan 30, 2008

We saw McLaughlin/Brubaker winning US senior pairs and Paetsch/Nuss winning junior. (if you think this belongs on another area, feel free to move it...). The guys are in their 20's and the girls are 14/15.

I'm thinking, in the long run, how wise is it to pair two people with such age difference ?

Sure, their height is matched now, but what if the girl has a major growth spurt, and his/her height ratio isn't so right anymore ? Worse, what if it happened right before Vancouver 2010 ?
Talking specifically: Keuna and Rockne are a wonderful pair, and I hope they have a great future. But Keuna is only 15 and probably with a growth spurt ahead of her. What if it happens right before the olympics ?

pista04 · Jan 30, 2008

Actually, they probably would have already checked that. I think medically, a woman will only grow for one to two years after her first menstrual cycle. So, for all we know, it could be a non-issue for them. I know most girls that age (its mine, as well) are usually done growing for the most part.

But, they could always hit very bad luck within the next year.

kyla2 · Jan 30, 2008

Another Perspective

I don't like pairing 14 year olds with 20 year olds for a whole other reason. It isn't appropriate because they are at different places in their lives. If I had a 14 year old daughter there is no way on the planet that I would let her skate with a 20 year old man. One is a child and one is a young man. I would have no problem with two a lesser age difference. Like 14 and 16 yrs old. Or 20 and 28 yr old, another o.k. age difference. That's two adults and is perfectly o.k.

pipsqueak · Jan 30, 2008

Look at the parents?

I don't know, you should probably look at the genetic parents to see how tall someone might be eventually. Keauna's mother is tall and growth in an athletic girl quite often happens at a later age than others. However, this appears to be a thoughtful choice in pairing. They are planning for 2010

Pairing the young girls with the older guys will always happen.....the gorilla/flea thing was started by the Russians over 30 years ago with Rodnina. I'm not entirely enamored with it, but it works.

heyang · Jan 30, 2008

It is possible to measure the space between bones and estimate total height. When my cousin was a boy, the doctor said that he would be over 6ft tall and he was one of the shorter kids in the class. He's about 6'1".

As for female growth, there's up as well as out to consider. Hips and breasts make rotation more difficult. I had my major growth spurt somewhere between age 14 1/2 to 16. However, I gained another inch and a 1/2 verticaly between the age of 16 to 18, too.

dorispulaski · Jan 30, 2008

People sometimes grow up much later than is normal. In my family, many of the boys don't reach their full height till their early 20's. My husband grew until he was about 25. My youngest son grew 6 inches after high school. My father was the same.

Look at how relatively late the Hughes' girls grew--Sarah grew significantly after her OGM, both up and out.

I think this is a risk, and it's hard, particularly on the girl, because the guys always seem to find another girl.

I'm thinking of Shantel Barrett--wonderful pairs skater in juniors, but grew too tall for her partner. ANd then there was Mariel Miller, Brubaker's previous partner. Grew & now she's gone.

Another problem with this type of partnership is that the boy is too old for juniors and the girl is too young for seniors.

It has skating advantages, but no real life advantages that I can see.

ks777 · Jan 30, 2008

what happens if they fall in love? Would he go to jail for child molestation?

attyfan · Jan 30, 2008

ks777 said:
what happens if they fall in love? Would he go to jail for child molestation?

Depends upon the state. Most states define child molestation in terms of a child under the age of ___; and this limit varies, although it is usually between 13 and 15.
In California, the most serious type is when the child is under the age of 14, there is a lesser offense if the child is between 14 and 16, and, the other party is over ten years older.

chuckm · Jan 30, 2008

Rockne Brubaker is powerfully built, but he is only 5'9", and a previous partnership had to end when his partner (Mariel Miller) got too big for him to lift safely. Miller/Brubaker won many medals in the JGP, including a gold and a silver in the 2004-2005 JGP, and bronze at the JGPF; in the 2005-2006 JGP, they won two gold medals and again bronze at the JGPF. They finished 4th at Jr. Worlds in 2005, and split shortly after that because Mariel had grown too tall.

Keauna was paired with Rockne when she was 12. They they first competed together in the JGP in the 2006-2007 season, and they won two gold medals and the gold medal at the JGPF. They went on to win the 2007 Junior Pairs Championship at US Nationals, and 2007 Junior Worlds. They won two silver medals in the 2007-2008 GP, and earned a trip to the GPF, but they had to withdraw when Rockne developed an infection in his foot. They won the 2008 Senior Pairs Championship at Nationals this month, but cannot compete in ISU Senior Championships because although Keauna is 15, her birthday is in September; they cannot compete at Junior Worlds because Rockne is 21.

Keauna's mother (who is a former show skater) is one of her coaches, and she isn't much taller than Keauna herself.

I don't think there is any danger of Rockne and Keauna 'falling in love'.

julietvalcouer · Jan 31, 2008

attyfan said:
Depends upon the state. Most states define child molestation in terms of a child under the age of ___; and this limit varies, although it is usually between 13 and 15.
In California, the most serious type is when the child is under the age of 14, there is a lesser offense if the child is between 14 and 16, and, the other party is over ten years older.

Not child molestation, perhaps, but if he's over the age of consent (usually 16-17) and she's under, it's statutory rape.

rain · Jan 31, 2008

julietvalcouer said:
Not child molestation, perhaps, but if he's over the age of consent (usually 16-17) and she's under, it's statutory rape.

Well, there's the legal definition, then there's the whole moral question and really, any adult will ask the same question — what the hell is a normal 20-year-old doing looking at a 14-year-old girl sexually for anyway? It's creepy.

But that's beside the point — as for them pairing a girl and guy with such a large age disparity, I think only in very isolated, lighting strikes kind of cases does it really work well long-term. There's her puberty to worry about — and girls who train intensively in sports often experience delayed puberty, meaning they're going to grow even later than they normally would. This can cause not only technical problems because of body changes, but also emotional turmoil as, just as a person, one starts to question whether one wants to skip all the school dances and dates etc. to skate at the rink. There's also the problem of how long each of them is going to want to keep competing. He's perhaps looking at college while she's not remotely there yet. Maybe he's happy to just win one world championship and an Olympic medal and then get on with life, while she still feels as if she's got lots of years left in the sport.

These things do, of course, come up in partnerships where the two people are closer in age as well, but the age difference can't help but exacerbate the problems.

In Canada we have a promising team, the Moscovitches — brother/sister. He's too old to compete in juniors, and she's too young to compete in seniors. It was that way last year as well, I believe. So they're basically out of all international competition. One can't help but wonder how long they'll last given both the age difference and the question of how long a brother/sister are really going to want to skate together.

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 31, 2008

One thing interesting about them is that he is not over 6 feet tall as so many male Pairs skaters are with their tiny partners of less than 5 feet tall. He is built like a mechanic in Joey Buttafucco's Body Shop so getting his throws and lifts high are not a problem. In the unlikelyhood, that Keanu gains a lot of weight, they will be fine.

As to the ages, when she is 20, he will be 26 - not unusual for couples.

Joe

gkelly · Jan 31, 2008

kyla2 said:
If I had a 14 year old daughter there is no way on the planet that I would let her skate with a 20 year old man. One is a child and one is a young man. I would have no problem with two a lesser age difference. Like 14 and 16 yrs old.

If you had a 14-year-old, or younger, daughter who was starting to learn difficult overhead lifts, twists, and death spirals and had the potential to land triple throw jumps, would you prefer her to learn those skills with a full-grown young man who had already mastered those tricks with another partner, or with a boy closer to her age who is first learning the skills at the same time and who has not yet developed as much upper body strength?

Also, if you had a 14-year-old, or younger, daughter who wanted to take up pair skating and there was a young man who trained locally and who was willing to pair with her and pay his share of the training costs, how would you feel about pairing with this young man as a first partner vs. having your daughter move across country, with or without a parent or other family member(s), to pair with a boy closer to her age who is not willing to relocate and who may expect the girl's family to pay more than half the training costs? How about if it's a choice between older partner or no partner at all?

There are only so many potential partners out there, and some partnerships may be useful early in a pairs career but may or may not continue to work well by the time one or both partners are ready for senior competition. At the time the novice -or junior-level pairings are made, how the team will match as seniors may not be the most important consideration. But sometimes partnerships that initially seem likely to be temporary do in fact work out for the long term. And the longer they last, the less significant any age difference will become over time. (Cf. Kovarikova and Novotny.)

attyfan · Jan 31, 2008

julietvalcouer said:
Not child molestation, perhaps, but if he's over the age of consent (usually 16-17) and she's under, it's statutory rape.

In most states, statutory rape (in California, it is now called "illegal sex") is not considered a serious crime. It applies if one party (in some states, only if the woman) is under the age of consent (usually 18), and the age of the other is irrelevant (as long as it is above the age necessary to avoid child molestation charges). So, if two 17-year-olds have sex, technically, it is statutory rape for both (or, in some states, only the guy can get nailed for it), but the chances of any one actually prosecuting these charges are remote.

BTW -- it has been held constitutionally proper to only penalize the guy in stat rape cases. The theory is that nature has given a teenage girl something that should act as a deterrent (fear of pregnancy), but there is nothing natural to deter the guy -- so the law can equalize the matter.

dorispulaski · Jan 31, 2008

attyfan said:
In most states, ... So, if two 17-year-olds have sex, technically, it is statutory rape for both (or, in some states, only the guy can get nailed for it), but the chances of any one actually prosecuting these charges are remote.

.

It should be noted that some states still have very severe penalties, Georgia being one of them. And because of the sex offender list, that punishment is For Life.

Even if jail time may be low, but registry on a sex offender list (which is often done) can be a horrific punishment. Florida law has people on the sex offender list forbidden to live within various distances from parks and schools. There was a case where people who had to live in Miami Dade county were living homeless under a bridge because they were on the sex offender list, had been released from prison & were on probation to stay in the county, but there was no where in the county they could legally live.

Here's a quote from a Georgia paper, where the situation is if anything worse:
http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/gwinnett/stories/2008/01/06/assembly_0106.html

People who have been convicted of statutory rape that occurred between consenting teenagers are presently being far too severely punished and catogorized for their thoughtless actions. Because of the present requirement of their registering as sex offenders, these unfortunate men and women find themselves entangled in a web of unearned lifelong problems and are treated as outcasts in every facet of their lives. With the residency law as it now stands, even the basic need of finding a "legal" place to live is virtually impossible, especially if the offenders are in the position of having to rent a residence. Even if successful in securing a home, they might as well keep their bags packed.

Those people who have been convicted of consensual sex with another teen certainly should not be classified in the same category of "sex offender" as are dangerous pedophiles and other sexual predators. However, that is exactly what happens the way our law now stands.

The current law simply places every offender, regardless of severity of the offense, in the same category. Nonpredators who have been given the title of lifelong sex offender for engaging in consensual teenage sex are treated the same, after confinement, as the most heinous sexual child predator. The scales of justice seem a bit off center.

KwanFan1212 · Jan 31, 2008

dorispulaski said:
I'm thinking of Shantel Barrett--wonderful pairs skater in juniors, but grew too tall for her partner. ANd then there was Mariel Miller, Brubaker's previous partner. Grew & now she's gone.

Another problem with this type of partnership is that the boy is too old for juniors and the girl is too young for seniors.

It has skating advantages, but no real life advantages that I can see.

Actually, her name is Shantal Jordan and she skated with Jeremy Barrett but I can see how you got them a bit mixed up, LOL :yes: I loved them as a team but she definitely got way too tall for Jeremy. I hope she finds a partner sometime again because I think she's great. I also loved Murial Miller and was so disappointed when her and Rockne's partnership ended. I kind of saw both of these coming though when I saw how tall the girls had gotten and how much they started struggling with lifts and twists. :sheesh:

hockeyfan228 · Jan 31, 2008

gkelly said:
If you had a 14-year-old, or younger, daughter who was starting to learn difficult overhead lifts, twists, and death spirals and had the potential to land triple throw jumps, would you prefer her to learn those skills with a full-grown young man who had already mastered those tricks with another partner, or with a boy closer to her age who is first learning the skills at the same time and who has not yet developed as much upper body strength?

Plus, if I were a Moscovitch parent, I could really give him grief if he dropped his sister

I also don't automatically assume that every 20-year-old man will be interested in a 14-year-old girl. For example, Gordeeva lamented how when she was first partnered she had a horrible crush on Grinkov, and he was busy with girls his own age and didn't even think of her as a potential girlfriend.

kyla2 · Jan 31, 2008

gkelly

I have to be honest, no daughter of mine would be into pairs skating at all. But definitely not with a 20 year old man. She would be going to school period. To be honest, the ice skating life is not one I would want for her. If she wanted to be a singles skater I would consider it, but school would be her top priority. I would want a much more normal life for her without those kind of pressures, never mind what it would do to the family budget, impacting the other children in the family. I would never allow a child of mine to move across the country to work with a particular coach. The integrity of the family is more important. School and everything that comes with it is more important. I think the Kwans and Hughes families did the impossible-raised three normal kids who skated at the top and went on to college.

Attyfan, depends upon the state. Georgia just had a major case as DorisPPulaski pointed out and it was very bad all around for the young man.

skatergirl45 · Jan 31, 2008

Interesting topic.
Well, many of the young/old teams break up soon because the girl grows or it just does not work. I would not really want to skate with a man 5-6 years my senior. It is more comfortable if you skate with someone closer to your age. Especially in puberty, when a girl can literaly overnight grow a foot. lol

dwiggin3 · Jan 31, 2008

KwanFan1212 said:
Actually, her name is Shantal Jordan and she skated with Jeremy Barrett but I can see how you got them a bit mixed up, LOL :yes: I loved them as a team but she definitely got way too tall for Jeremy. I hope she finds a partner sometime again because I think she's great. I also loved Murial Miller and was so disappointed when her and Rockne's partnership ended. I kind of saw both of these coming though when I saw how tall the girls had gotten and how much they started struggling with lifts and twists. :sheesh:

Hey Heather, just wanted to say hi! Thanks for everything at nationals! :biggrin:

Pairing 14 year old girls with 20 year old guys

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