Moves That Don't Quite Make It: Master it or Scrap it? | Golden Skate

Moves That Don't Quite Make It: Master it or Scrap it?

Piel

On Edge
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
What moves can you do without? Do you find them distracting from the beauty of the program? IMO I dislke seeing I spins where the skater cannot get the leg extended enough. To me it looks like they are saying "Look how far I can't straighten out my leg". So, do you think it is better for a skater to attempt a move they have not mastered, or should they only include a move after they have perfected it?
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
So, do you think it is better for a skater to attempt a move they have not mastered, or should they only include a move after they have perfected it?

Somewhere in between. I don't expect perfection (otherwise most skaters would not be able to put anything in their programs at all), but I do prefer to see basic competence at most of the skills, with maybe a few challenges to push the skater beyond his/her limits.
 

nubka

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Well, if we are talking about moves that we just don't like (no matter how well they are done,) "the fire hydrant" would go to the top of my list. In ice dancing, I loathe any kind of lift where the lady is upsidedown, with her legs spread eagle (I always think of that as "the crotch lift"...ugh!!)

As far as moves that are not well executed, I agree with the comment about spins with legs that can't extend all the way. Spins where the supporting leg is slightly bent don't look too clean, either. This goes for the men, too!

Of course, I can hardly touch my toes, so who am I to talk...
 

Kwanford Wife

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Oh, Piel, where to begin... I have so many...

the fire hydrant spiral - never a good look
bad charlottes
the quad in general
that weird fanny in the air, leg at 45 degree spin
the "let's drag my partner around" death spiral
flat edges on spirals
and of course, my all time least favorite move - the I spin. To heck with flexiblity - it simply isn't ladylike.
 

clairecloutier

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 27, 2003
I'm getting tired of seeing the same layback spin in nearly every short program. It's gotten to the point where I can almost say: "Okay, now she's doing the classic layback--in a minute, she's going to pull her skate up by her head--and yup, there's the Biellmann position to finish it off!" So many ladies are doing the same exact spin. It's boring.
 

kittyjake5

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 7, 2005
I have to agree with all of the above but my pet peeve this season is the footwork section. If I see another skater bending down on one knee and swatting imaginary flies I am going to scream.
 

NatachaHatawa

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 4, 2008
The problem is this new system. I bet many skaters would like to not have to do some stuff or do something else, but they can't because the system doesn't allow them too. This is why I don't call the LP the free skate anymore: it isn't free.
 

Johar

Medalist
Joined
Dec 16, 2003
What is the I spin? Can someone post a pic of it?

The one I don't like is the WB Frog/Welcome to My Crotch move.
 

Wrlmy

Medalist
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
The current system made flexibility a necessity in order to be competitive at all. Skaters need "difficult variation" of camel, layback, upright, and sit spin to increase the level of spin. I'm left thinking any other difficult variation of layback than biellmann would involve even more contortionist, life-threatening position. Difficult variation of camel spin would be doughnut which looks unattractive on most skaters not named Oksana or Yukari. When Yu-na Kim received lv4 on all of her spins at GPF where she didn't include any contortionist position, I was first impressed. But after seeing how many times she constantly changes her edge, position, etc, I was :unsure:
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
What is the I spin? Can someone post a pic of it?

The one I don't like is the WB Frog/Welcome to My Crotch move.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2002/20021103/sp.jpg


here is a link to a well done I spin.


I hate death spirals where the lady does not get all the way down...it looks awkward. most pair spins also look like a very slow, difficult, long moment. Any spiral where the skater does not have any flexiblity and wobbles on thier edges. I think that at the senior level, skaters should be able to do a decent spiral.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The only thing that the skaters are "required" to do in the free skate are some kind of axel jump, a flying spin, a spin in one position, and a combination spin. Anything else, including variations, they can do or not do at their own choice. In fact, they could also leave out any of the above, but if so it's fairly likely that at least one of the moves they did instead would end up not counting.

However, to earn the maximum number of points that they're capable of, the system encourages (which is not the same as requires) them to do the full number of jumping passes allowed including three combinations one of which includes three jumps; four spins (three for juniors); and two step sequences for men or a step sequence and a spiral sequence for ladies. Also it encourages them to include whatever features they can to earn higher levels for their spins, step sequences, and spiral sequences.

Skaters are certainly allowed to do level 1 or level 2 moves if they so choose. Yes, the points earned are lower than for level 3 or level 4, but doing the simpler moves well enough to earn higher GOEs than they'd be capable of with more features would close that gap somewhat and also potentially conserve energy so they could backload their harder jumps and earn more points that way. There are several strategies open to skaters as to how to work the system depending on their individual strengths -- if some strategies have been more common because they make it easier to maximize the points or if some skaters are choosing the same strategies that worked for other skaters rather than those that would work better for themselves, that doesn't mean that the other options are not allowed.

Skaters could even do illegal moves that they would like to do, such as backflips, if they really wanted to, but they would lose points instead of gaining points so it would be kind of silly to do them in competition. Same as in the old system.

There are other moves or variations that used to be considered in evaluating the difficulty and variety of the whole program, such as illusion spins or split flips or inside axels, that do not raise the level of a spin or that earn no points or that earn relatively few points and fill an element spot where a higher-point element could go instead, so in effect the system discourages skaters from including them. These are not illegal moves -- skaters are certainly allowed to include them -- but if the expenditure of energy involved would impact the quality of the rest of the program or if the move would fill a slot that could be better used for an element worth more points, then it's not worth doing them.

We have been seeing skaters doing illusions in their step sequences lately rather than in their spins, since they can help toward fulfilling the full upper body use bullet point there.

The well-balanced program rules and the bullet points for features and levels could be rewritten to encourage more variety. I hope that as the new system evolves that we will see this happen. Meanwhile I also hope that skaters/coaches/choreographers will be more creative in using the existing rules to showcase the skaters' individual strengths, and that judges will reward creativity and quality and not just conformity to the current popular trends. And I hope that fans will watch enough different skaters at all levels and look at the details as well as the general impression to appreciate better the variety and creativity that already exists within the various skaters' approach to the new system.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Difficult variation of camel spin would be doughnut which looks unattractive on most skaters ...

That's one difficult variation. And in fact there's also the catch-foot camel with the free leg above the head rather than parallel, but the torso still mostly horizontal (i.e., not an upright/semi-Biellmann spin).

Another difficult variation listed here is a layover/upside down position with the body turned upward approximately 180 degrees.
So is increasing the speed after the camel position has been established, which can be achieved by bending the free leg without grabbing it. So is a "toe arabian" jump over in the middle of the spin.

Would the Cranston camel (leg position similar to this, although this is a spiral) be considered a difficult variation? I'm not sure about that.

Spinning in both directions is another feature that skaters could choose to make use of in a change-foot camel.

And edge changes on camels tend to be more attractive than in other positions.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
What moves can you do without? Do you find them distracting from the beauty of the program? IMO I dislke seeing I spins where the skater cannot get the leg extended enough. To me it looks like they are saying "Look how far I can't straighten out my leg". So, do you think it is better for a skater to attempt a move they have not mastered, or should they only include a move after they have perfected it?

when it comes to a flexible type position... don't attempt it if your body can't. Not everyone can bend like Sasha or Caroline, and they shouldn't try.

But if it's something like footwork or jumps - I think putting it in and attempting it until you get it is probably the best idea.
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
Those skaters who don't have a completely vertical, straight leg are not trying to perform an "I Spin", they are actually performing what is called an "egg-beater spin." Rudy Galindo and Nicole Bobek were known for doing those back in the 6.0 days. Not every skater in the world has to try and be Gumby, and thank the heavens for that!

Here is Midori Ito doing an egg-beater spin: http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/3271/944112-ito-eggbeater.jpg
 
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blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
I cannot find a photo, but the one move that I don't like is the a-frame spin that Emanuel and Jeff used to do. I have friends who had other names for that spin.
 

KwanFan1212

Joey Votto Fangirl
Final Flight
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
... bd - is that the 'butt spin' ?

If that is what he's talking about, I can't stand that spin either. I really don't want to see some skater spinning around with their butt in the air. :no:

I'm also not a fan of the hydrant spiral that Sasha apparently brought to the table (she was the first one I saw do it) although it doesn't seem like as many girls are trying that these days which is a relief! :rock:
 
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