Alternative competition structures

OK, so maybe the current setup of the short program and long program the current required elements and well-balanced program rules is not the ideal competition format you would like to see.

So here's a thread for brainstorming alternative structures. Let's imagine that we're building a skating competition structure from scratch. You can keep anything from the way things are currently structures or from 5 years ago or 50 years ago, or you can make something completely new.

What would you like to see?

Let us know the details of how you'd like it to work.

Also let us know who/what your competition structure is for.

Is it to determine world champions? How do skaters qualify to get to the final round of that structure? Does your format apply to all senior-level competitions along the way, or only to the elite of the elite? Would the same format apply for junior level, or lower levels?

How do you want to balance evaluation of technical skills and artistry/entertainment value for audiences?

Do you want to keep the disciplines of men's and ladies' singles freestyle, pairs, dance, and synchro, or do you want to break things up differently?

Are there competitions you'd like to see that would be separate from the determining of championships? Would your governing body also sponsor performance opportunities that would be separate from competition, and how would it decide who gets to take advantage of those opportunities?

Let your imagination run wild. And let us know your reasons and the specifics of how your system would work if you want us to discuss it in more detail.

Just speaking for the singles disciplines at the moment, I'd like to see 2 programs for all the men and ladies.

Combination jumps are not allowed in either program.

Quad attempts are not allowed by any skater.

Ladies are not allowed to attempt a 3Axel.

A skater is not allowed to repeat the same triple in a program i.e. 3Lutz, 3flip, 3Lutz. A skater is required to show variety in each program.

A skater cannot attempt 3Lutz, 3flip, 3loop in program A and then attempt 3Lutz, 3flip, 3loop in program B. Each type of triple must be attempted throughout the competition.

Vocals are allowed in both programs.

Both programs are not allowed to go over 4 minutes.

Moves in the field are required going into 2 jump passes in each program.

A 2Axel is required in both programs for the men and women.

Ladies are limited to 3 triples in both programs.
Ladies must perform a spiral sequence in both programs.
Ladies must perform a flying spin of different variety in both programs.
Ladies must perform a combination spin in both programs.
Ladies must perform a basic one position spin (sit spin, camel spin, pancake spin, donut spin, Y-spin, layback spin, etc.) of different variety in each program.
Ladies must perform a footwork sequence of different variety in each program.

Men are limited to 4 triples in both programs.
Men must perform 2 footwork sequences of different variety in each program.
Men must perform a flying spin of different variety in both programs.
Men must perform a combination spin in both programs.
Men must perform a basic one position spin (sit spin, camel spin, pancake spin, donut spin, Y-spin, layback spin, etc.) of different variety in each program.

For example, program A for a lady:

Spiral sequence
3Lutz
Spread eagle into 2Axel
Flying camel spin
3flip
Layback spin
Ina Bauer into 3loop
Circular footwork sequence
Combination spin

Program B for a lady:

2Axel
3Lutz
Y-spin
Back spiral into 3Salchow
Flying sit spin
Spiral sequence
Split falling leaf into 3toe
Combination spin
Serpentine footwork sequence

Program A for a man:

3Axel
Flying sit spin
Walley into 3Lutz
Circular footwork sequence
2Axel
Pancake spin
3flip
Back shoot the duck into 3loop
Straight line footwork sequence
Combination spin

Program B for a man:

Stag jump into 2Axel
Flying camel spin
3toe
Serpentine footwork sequence
3Axel
Sit spin
1 foot Axel into 3Salchow
3Lutz
Combination spin
Straight line footwork sequence

If a skater completely omits a requirement from those above, the skater is deducted the base value of what that element was worth from their total score.

A panel of 5 judges determine the value grades of the executed technical elements and a different panel of 5 judges determine the grades of presentation/interpretation, skating skills, performance/execution, transitions, and choreography.

I think programs need to have better emphasis on quality, variety, and balance. Essentially, this setup is designed to put equal focus on jumps, spins, and footwork. By limiting the number of triples in a program, this balance can finally be achieved. Without so much emphasis on jumps, the skater is allowed more freedom and time to bring character and theatricality onto the ice and really explore the themes of the programs. Hopefully, this would mean we would also see cleaner skating with fewer mistakes. Base values of jumps and spins under Code of Points remain intact. Levels on non-jump elements are thrown out. Grade of Execution points are judged the same as now. The emphasis is on QUALITY, not quantity.


There should be REAL all male pairs teams. Some teams that come to mind.

Jeremy Abbott/Stephane Lambiel
Evan Lysacek/Jeffrey Buttle
Andrei Griazev/Johnny Weir
Brian Joubert/Andrei Lutai
Tomas Verner/Daisuke Takahashi
Sergei Voronov/Patrick Chan
Kevin Van Der Perren/Yannick Ponsero
Ilia Klimkin/Shawn Sawyer
Fedor Andreev/Sergei Dobrin
Alexander Uspenski/Adam Rippon


Let's kill nationalism and sexism all in one stone! Die stereotypes and phobias, die!!! Live WORLD PRIDE, LIVE!!!

Cool, musksk8r.

Is this plan for two programs with technical content to be spread across both intended to be the basic competition structure for all senior-level competitions?

Since you have similar requirements for both programs, could skaters switch up which of their two programs for the season to perform in the first round of competition and which second, so at some events program A would become program B and vice versa?

museksk8r said:

Combination jumps are not allowed in either program.

Quad attempts are not allowed by any skater.

Ladies are not allowed to attempt a 3Axel.

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Why not? Are those skills never to be allowed in any competition? Or is the format you outline here only one kind of competition offered, and there might be some other format that the same skaters or different skaters could enter in which they could push the limits on jump content?

1 foot Axel into 3Salchow

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This is a jump combination -- I thought you wanted to forbid them.

There should be REAL all male pairs teams.

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How about all-female pair teams as well? Of course some of the kinds of elements performed in male-male, male-female, and female-female teams would be different, so they different kinds of pairs wouldn't compete against each other.

gkelly said:

How about all-female pair teams as well? Of course some of the kinds of elements performed in male-male, male-female, and female-female teams would be different, so they different kinds of pairs wouldn't compete against each other.

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I would have a new catagory, "duets," any mixture of sexes OK, all in one competition. Johnny Weir/Sasha Cohen (Celine Dion/Andrea Bocelli, The Prayer) against Yuka Sato/Caroline Zhang (the Letter Duet from the Marriage of Figaro). The only restriction would be that they would have to skate to a classic duet.

gkelly said:

Cool, musksk8r.

Is this plan for two programs with technical content to be spread across both intended to be the basic competition structure for all senior-level competitions?

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Yes.

Since you have similar requirements for both programs, could skaters switch up which of their two programs for the season to perform in the first round of competition and which second, so at some events program A would become program B and vice versa?

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Yes, that would be allowed.

Why not? Are those skills never to be allowed in any competition? Or is the format you outline here only one kind of competition offered, and there might be some other format that the same skaters or different skaters could enter in which they could push the limits on jump content?

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My formats are designed to preserve the health of the skaters and to promote longevity in the sport, hence the discarding of Levels and Quad attempts for the men/ladies and 3Axel attempts for the ladies. Again, my concern is quality, not quantity. I don't want to increase the chances of our beautiful athletes being injured. This is my fantasy, after all.

This is a jump combination -- I thought you wanted to forbid them.

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Sorry, the jump in combination cannot be a double or triple rotation. I should have specified. I've always loved watching a 1-foot Axel. My use of the 1-foot Axel in this case is more of a transition.

How about all-female pair teams as well? Of course some of the kinds of elements performed in male-male, male-female, and female-female teams would be different, so they different kinds of pairs wouldn't compete against each other.

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YES! BRING THEM ON!! Both sexes have so much to offer in any pairing imaginable!

My fantasy is to have rules that allow skaters with different strengths and weaknesses to compete against each other on as even a playing field as possible in an overall competition and also to give smaller but meaningful rewards to skaters who especially excel in one particular area.

So if I were recreating singles competition from scratch, I would have four separate competitions for singles.

Jump Competition
This is the place for pushing the envelope and taking risks. It would be somewhat similar to a diving competition or vault event in gymnastics.
Because skaters will get two attempts at each element and they don't have to connect the jumps to other elements and get to rest in between, they would have a better chance of landing their hardest jumps safely in this format and could attempt jumps or combinations that would be too risky and too potentially disruptive in the context of a program.

Required elements would be three, four, or all five of the following:

-solo double/triple/quad edge jump

-solo double/triple/quad toe jump

-combination of two or three double/triple/quad jumps

-sequence of two or three double/triple/quad jumps with some limits on how many/what kind of hops, steps, or turns would be permitted between them (but less restrictive than the currently existing long program jump sequence rules)

-small-jump sequence consisting of at least three jumps of 1.5 or fewer revolutions each (the base mark for this element would be determined by which and how many "features" it fulfills, as in determining the levels for non-jump elements under the current system -- features include things like difficult air positions, doing certain kinds of jumps in both directions, landing and taking off from controlled forward edges, etc.)

Additional requirements would be that at least one of the double/triple/quad jumps must have a forward takeoff (axel or inside axel, landing on either foot) and that the same jump (same takeoff and same number of revolutions) cannot be performed in more than one element, although the same jump can be repeated within a combination or sequence. Either the combo or the sequence can have three double/triple/quad jumps, but the other can have only two.

Base marks would follow the scale of values for the individual jumps, and combos and sequences would be scored the same way as in the long programs, except that (both here and in long programs) I would add a bonus to the value of the second or third jump in a combination and a smaller bonus for the second or third jump in a sequence.

For combos and sequences there would also be a bonus to the element as a whole if the jumps are rotated in opposite directions, and this would also be one of the features for the small-jump sequence.

Double/triple inside axels and walleys would also have base values and be acceptable in any of the elements except of course the required toe jump, although I don't expect to see triples from those takeoffs any time soon.

Judges would award GOEs to each jump based on the quality of the jumps themselves and also taking into account the approaches to the jump and the exits, so that a clean but telegraphed quad would likely score 0 or -1, whereas a double jump with a difficult entry, enhanced air position, and/or difficult exit as well as correct takeoffs and landings could earn +3.

The skater gets two chances at each element, and the better score counts. If the skater is happy with the first attempt s/he can choose to skip the second one and move on to the next element.

There would be no PCS awarded for this competition.

This format would require all skaters to demonstrate a variety of jump skills. It would also allow them to showcase whatever jump skills they're best at. If it's easier for them than for most skaters to do more than 3 revolutions (triple axels and quads), they have that option. If they're good at putting difficult jumps at the ends of combos or sequences, they'll be rewarded for that. If they can jump in both directions or achieve spectacular air positions or delay the rotation on double jumps or do difficult steps/turns/field moves into and out of their jumps, they can be rewarded for those skills.

Spin Competition
Three or four required elements:

-Spin in one position
-Flying spin
-Combination spin with all three basic positions
-Any other spin of the skater's choice

It could be completely up to the skaters whether they want to change feet on any or all of these spins or whether the spin in one position or the combo are entered with a fly or the flying spin changes position. OR the type of one-position spin and the type of flying spin could be specified, along with whether they are required or are not allowed to change foot, and the number of changes allowed/required in the combination could also be specified.

In the latter version, maybe each year the first element would specify one basic position (or specific variations of upright spins such as layback, cross-foot, or scratch spin) and whether it should be a forward or back spin, the second element would specify a different basic spinning position, and the last element could require the third basic position with at least one or two changes of foot.

This competition could be run like the jump competition, with skaters doing the spins in a required order with second attempts allowed and breaks in between, and only GOEs awarded.

OR the skaters can have, say, 1 1/2 minutes to do a spin program (without music), with choreographed connecting moves from one spin to the next. In that case not only would they get a technical score but judges could also give component scores for Transitions and Performance/Execution. And if a skater should fall, bail out, etc., on a spin they wouldn't get a second chance to try it again; they'd just get no score if they didn't do enough for level 1 before the mistake, or whatever level they did do enough for and a negative GOE if the mistake was later in the course of the spin.

Either way the spin events can be held on half the ice surface, so the men's and ladies' spin competitions can take place at the same time.

This format would allow skaters to hold spins longer than they might have time for the context of a program, especially if they had fallen behind the music on other elements, without having to worry about the spins tiring them out or making them too dizzy to do difficult jumps or steps immediately afterward.

Skating Skills/Interpretation Competition

The purpose of this competition is to showcase basic skating technique, presentation, and music interpretation. In that sense it would be like a solo ice dance program.

It does not allow difficult jumps or spins, so skaters can concentrate on the other skills. Maybe only jumps of up to 1 or 1.5revolutions and spinlike movements up to 3 revolutions are allowed. Or maybe for senior skaters spins non-combo level 1 spins and double jumps would also be allowed, but they wouldn't be required and wouldn't get any points.

There could be technical points available for non-jump, non-spin elements:

-Step sequence
-Spiral sequence
-Field moves sequence (must contain at least two positions of spread eagle, Ina Bauer, and/or shoot-the-duck/hydroblade moves and can also contain spirals or other moves)
-School figures (two or three tangent circles, with a variety of variations available to earn higher base marks and GOEs; I have some suggestions)
-Special figures (other identifiable geometric patterns of edgework, with base marks to be determined)

Maybe skaters can choose any 3 of the above to earn points for base mark and GOE.

All five of the existing PCS should be used. Although if there are no elements, then the whole program would be "transitions" so the Transitions component could be eliminated.

Programs would be 2 to 3.5 minutes long, depending on the rules.

The most artistic skaters with the best combination of basic skating technique and musicality would excel in this competition, even if they don't have the jumping or spinning skills to do well in the freeskating competition. But it would likely be a more entertaining event for audiences who are interested in skating as performance (whereas the jump competition would be preferred by audience members who are mainly interested in the faster-higher-stronger type of sports).

So if this event gained enough fans, or enough skaters who entered this only and not also the jumps, spins, and combined events, maybe it would turn into a separate solo ice dance-like event with two phases.

First could be a 2-minute solo OD with a specified rhythm every year and some specified required elements and no difficult jumps and spins.

Second could be a 3- or 3.5-minute free program to music of the skater's choice either with a choice of which elements non-jump non-spin elements to include for TES points, or no TES scored at all, only PCS. Skaters could be allowed to include double jumps and level 1 spins, or they could even be allowed to include any type of jump or spin allowed in the freeskating program but without much incentive do harder elements just because they're harder. E.g., no jumps or spins receive any base mark or GOE so they only count as far they contribute to the choreography; or all spins of level 2 or above would get points for level 2; jumps could earn 1 point per revolution, so double toe or double lutz would be 2.0, double axel would be 2.5, triple toe or triple lutz 3.0, etc.

Well-Balanced/Freeskating Competition

This would be a regular long program competition, which could stand alone so whoever wins that program wins that competition. It would showcase well-roundedness but would also allow skaters to emphasize their own strengths.

All the elements mentioned in the above element competitions would be fair game. The well-balanced program rules would be much more flexible than is currently the case. Something like this:

Maximum 15 elements

Minimum 4, maximum 8 jump elements, of which at least one must be an axel-type jump and at least one but no more than three must be combinations or sequences; small-jump sequence counts as a jump element

Minimum 3, maximum 6 spin elements, which must include at least one spin in one position, at least one flying spin, and at least one combination spin (as three separate elements)

Minimum 1, maximum 2 step sequences

Maximum 1 each of the following:
Spiral sequence
Field moves sequence
School figures
Special figures

* * * * *
Skaters could enter any or all of these competition streams at the beginning of a qualifying structure (e.g., regionals in US competition), and if they place well enough they would move on to the next competition.

We could make it so that at large competitions whoever does best in the combined scores of the first three separate-skill events listed would qualify to move on to the well-balanced event.

Or everyone could compete the well-balanced program first and the skaters who got the highest jump scores, spin scores, and step/spiral sequence scores-plus-PCS would qualify for "event finals" in the separate events.

My ideal system would be rather like the old one: an SP and a FS.
They would have the same requirements as they did during the old system, ie: there would be imposed figures in the SP whereas the FS would be completely free.

I would allow vocals in both.

In both, artistry would be graded out of 100 and so would technique.
The FS would be worth twice as much as the SP.

When judges submit their scores, the final one wouldn't be an average of positions given by the judges, but an average score. In consequence, the scores of the SP and the FS would just be added together, like the current system. The reason for this is that adding on scores rather than positions, takes into account the difference between skaters. For example, during the last Olys, there were barely any points separating the top 3 women after the SP, so one can say they performances were more or less of same value, and the actual scores were due to subjectiveness. Had it been the old system, this wouldn't have been taken into account, which would have been quite unfair.

Scores and respective judges would be shown, since anonymous judging just encourages corruption.
Judges would have to file a report afterwards explaining the scores they gave. Judges can have very different scores from one another, which is a good thing, as it means different opinions are taken into account, but people need to know where the scores are comming from, why skater x got a better score than skater y etc...
If this had been done, during the Olys, judges maybe wouldn't have given Plusheno the ridiculously high grades he got.

This applies to singles and paire's skating.

For ice dancing I'd do the same, just count the FD 3 times, the OD twice, and the CD once.

Okay, I'll go with my dream format (which has no chance of ever happening) and restrict myself to singles:

Single style competitions, three different styles:

Free-skating (more or less the same as now) with pre-1989 style SP (overall I like that format better) and an LP that's freer than now. For the young hotshots to shine.

Figures (as in roller skating a separate event).

Dance/interpretive based more on _quality_ footwork and dance skills maybe with very limited jump/spin content (and maybe jumps not used in modern free skating and/or jumps that fit in with solo dance) exact format to be determined, I'm thinking of something like solo CD's for the compulsories and something like Free dance for the LP.

These competitions would have both two day (for the most important competitons) and one day variants (just the lp's and fewer figures)

Combined:
An all around competition not necessarily held at the same time as single style competitions.
figures (25 %) two figures (as in 89-90)
dance/interpretive (25 %) something like dance/interpretive compulsories (see above)
free-skate (50%) kind of like current SLP but with minimum and maximum jump (say 4-5 passes, including one combo), spin (2-3) and footwork requirements (2-3). Nothing over 3 revolutions allowed for jumps and one jumping element of only two revolutions.

Oh, and instead of qualifying events, I'd set up international skills levels. That is to compete at the major competitions, you have to pass skills tests, being the champion of Bunnyhopistan won't be enough.

One LP program should be sufficient to crown a winner and podium results.

If not one program then two programs that should be structured totally different.

My preference for one program should be scored by two separate panels of judges - one for the Technical with Technical Assistance and one for the Presentation.without Presentation Assistance (much too subjective).

Joe

NatachaHatawa said:

Scores and respective judges would be shown, since anonymous judging just encourages corruption.
Judges would have to file a report afterwards explaining the scores they gave. Judges can have very different scores from one another, which is a good thing, as it means different opinions are taken into account, but people need to know where the scores are comming from, why skater x got a better score than skater y etc...
If this had been done, during the Olys, judges maybe wouldn't have given Plusheno the ridiculously high grades he got.

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Yes, thank you so much for mentioning this. This policy should be implemented into EVERY judged competition. Bravo!

Joesitz said:

My preference for one program should be scored by two separate panels of judges - one for the Technical with Technical Assistance and one for the Presentation.without Presentation Assistance (much too subjective).

Joe

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I like that idea! It will limite judges giving skaters high artistry notes to compensate the bed technical ones.

I liked the idea of a few posters on that other thread.

The SP:

required elements, must be done with correct edges, spins must be held of certain amount of revolutions, and at least one of the spins must be one position only. The technical mark makes up more of the score than the artistic. Artistry is encouraged, but the main rule is clean programs that show clearly skating abilities. (think test program)

The LP:

Pretty much a "free" skate. I think that there should be no "required" elements, spirals should be judges on the positions and edge quality, not necessarily how long they are held and they should not have to be all strung together in a "sequence". Jumps cannot be repeated more than twice and there should be a bonus if you are perfectly clean, even if all you attempt are doubles. The PCS score makes up half or more of the total in this portion.

I think we should stick with the point system for both parts of the competition, and the skater with the highest total wins!

For example:
SP1: 3Z-2T, 2A, 3F, Flying camel, Layback, Camel-Sit-Back Sit, Spiral Sequence Consisting of FO, FI, Backward Biellman. Straight Line Footwork. Would all competitors have the same footwork or should some be different?
SP2: A different one to choose from which is less difficult. 3S-2T, 3L, 2A, everything else the same. Would this program be able to have the same point total as the other one to make the game fair or should it not b/c the jumps are easier?

I'm all for a duet category (that would make five categories).

The Duet: a combination of Skate Dance and Pairs using sbs jumps and spins - no throws; no 'carry' lifts above the head, and yes, gorgeous footwork a la Gene Kelly and Leslie Caron. Twizzles optional.

In ballet as in all formal show dancing, one dances with an assigned partner. which may change nightly.

Can you imagine:

Lambiel and Cohen?

Browning and Kwan?

Takahashi and Zhang?

Orsa and Kim?

and switching partners would have people come back another night.

Joe

^^ My dream pairing would be Michelle and Stephane. My favorite lady and man of skating. I don't think my heart would be able to take it; I'd be crying my eyes out and overwhelmed with joy.

museksk8r said:

^^ My dream pairing would be Michelle and Stephane. My favorite lady and man of skating. I don't think my heart would be able to take it; I'd be crying my eyes out and overwhelmed with joy.

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If she could portray Juliet as much as he can portray Romeo, it would be nothing short of Grand Art

his Romeo: Lambiel Eisgala Davos - Romeo&Juliet go to youtube. I'll never learn to transpose these things.

Joe

I love the idea of skating in duets! Female-female as well as male-female. Although I don't have a certain couple in mind, some pretty cool combinations could be possible! But surely this is never going to happen!

Joesitz said:

I'm all for a duet category (that would make five categories).

The Duet: a combination of Skate Dance and Pairs using sbs jumps and spins - no throws; no 'carry' lifts above the head, and yes, gorgeous footwork a la Gene Kelly and Leslie Caron. Twizzles optional.

In ballet as in all formal show dancing, one dances with an assigned partner. which may change nightly.

Can you imagine:

Lambiel and Cohen?

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I''d DIE to see that my ultimate favorite lady and man skater.

Bring back figures to figure skating and forget the quad.

Ladskater said:

Bring back figures to figure skating and forget the quad.

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I like the way you think.