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Thread: Most 6.0s in international comps!

  1. #16
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    Originally posted by Skating is fun
    Well, Anke, as we all here know, you just hate Kwan, but worship Yagudin, so it doesn`t make sense to discuss anything related to Michelle with you.
    But it is alright to count her perfect scores at Nationals, because you should count that competition just like Europeans. The standard is very similar and if you compare the number of skaters in most categories...well, I guess you`ve got it. And I don`t think you insist that Russian Nationals should count as well...as far as I recall Yags never really skated well there and at least once was even lucky to make the team at all. Btw, I`m European and not too crazy about Michelle myself!
    Skating is fun, I won't comment on your personal attacks .... nor on your remark about Alexei and Russian Nationals.

    To your comparison between US Nats and Europeans:
    Nationals and international competitions don't work the same way, and though US Nats have got an excellent level in the ladies field, one cannot easily compare the results to Europeans where such things as nationality and patriotism do count, though they shouldn't.
    And I agree with icenut.

    Personnally, I would like to have somebody add the results of the international junior competitions, too. Has anybody got a clue?

  2. #17
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    Anke,

    I have to agree and say that if it is a pack of Kwan-crazy fans you want to argue with, you should be on another board. I didn't see anyone in this thread worshipping the skate goddess Kwan or giving you any grief over your opinions until your Kwan comment. The first reference to Michelle made in this thread was made by....you. So, in the future, if you don't want to be lambasted with Michelle praise I might advise not mentioning her name in a thread where she isn't relevant. You don't like Michelle. You'll find that most people on this board can get past that and discuss things rationally. For those fans that can't get to that point, just be mature and ignore them. They won't stay long anyway. You love Alexei (and so do I, lol!) and I'm sure it bothers you when non-Alexei fans repeatedly take every opportunity (and make opportunities) to throw in jabs and criticisms. It's pointless and potentially spoils a board where rational people can discuss their favorite sport and skaters intelligently. You get what you give. If you make off-the-subject jabs, you'll find someone that will give you a response in the same style. If you don't like Kwan and wish to address that on this board, start a thread and discuss it there. Otherwise, on to the subject at hand!

    I was always under the impression that Midori had the most 6.0s in international competitions. Katarina Witt also had quite a few that I can remember (many at Worlds I think). Also, I don't think Europeans would be considered an international event since it excludes 3/4 of the World, lol. Both Alexei and Evgeny have had many in the Grand Prix events as well.

  3. #18
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    tdnuva - You are absolutely correct about the number of 6.0s in whatever competitions. American judges tend to give them out freely to American skaters and European judges do the same for the Europeans. That's the subjectivity in figure skating.

    But for me, pesonally, I don't consider 6.0s as anything special. It does amuse me to see them, but I am a stickler about perfection and 6.0s are just a biased mark unless it is required to put someone above a previous skater he/she gave a 5.9.

    No one is perfect, and we all know that. Not even Tiger Woods.

    I am having a bit of trouble on why this thread is comparing US Senior Ladies to the whole of European Senior Ladies. I'm not so pro-American to get involved in such a comparison. Certainly not when I compare beautiful skating to beautiful skating. Love Kwan, yes, but I also love Jenna McKorkle, Sarah Meier, Dan Fong, and so many more non-American skaters - and that's just the Ladies. My list of Men's skaters is even larger from all over the world.

    What does the most 6.0s mean anyhow. That some skater should have won the Olys and didn't?

    Joe

  4. #19
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    Originally posted by Joesitz
    ... 6.0s are just a biased mark unless it is required to put someone above a previous skater he/she gave a 5.9.

    No one is perfect, and we all know that. Not even Tiger Woods.
    You are absolutely right - technically speaking. A judge gives a skater a 5.9 for an excellent performance, and then another skater skates even better and logically obtains the 6.0 - though his performance might not have been totally flawless.

    But still, 6.0 is legend. It's the illusion of absolute perfection. I understand the skaters who dream about this mark, and also the choreographers. Figure skating is a sport, of course, and we all know that a performance in the eighties without quads wouldn't get a 6.0 today. But there is also this artistic part, and to know that one has created or performed one of the very best programs ever (and this is what 6.0 stands for) is certainly one of the highlight in any skaters and choreographer's career.

  5. #20
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Another thing that needs to be mentioned is that the last one or two skaters in the last flight are more likely to get 6.0's than the first skaters in the flight. And the skaters in the previous flight, even when wonderful, do not get 6.0's. The best case in point would be perhaps Midori Ito in the 1988 Olympics on the technical marks. Or perhaps Denise Biellmann in the 1980 Olympics.

    The only time the fact of a 6.0 impresses me is when all or nearly all the judges come up with 6.0 for the same skater. (T&D, World's 1984). Then it is a true accolade of perfection. Otherwise I agree with Joe. It's a place marker.

    dpp

  6. #21
    Gone with the wind windspirit's Avatar
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    I, too, think that a 6.0 is usually used for scoring purposes. Only sometimes it means something more than that, like here:


    But it doesn't happen often. And I'd rather the judges were more stingy when giving out the highest mark, because many people do take it as a sign of perfection -- even if it's clear it wasn't the case.

    BronzeisGolden, great post, but I can't agree with this:

    Originally posted by BronzeisGolden
    Also, I don't think Europeans would be considered an international event since it excludes 3/4 of the World, lol.
    Even if only two countries participated it'd be an international competition, wouldn't it? And Europe has, if I'm not mistaken, 44 countries. It also has 38 skating federations (if I counted correctly). I don't really know how you came up with the idea that Europeans (or Europe itself) are not international enough. I don't even think there's another continent with so many countries that "produce" skaters.

  7. #22
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    Windspirit,

    I'm thinking more in terms of a competition such as Four Continents, where skaters from China, Australia, Belarus, South Africa, Brazil and Canada could all feesibly compete. Technically, I agree that Europeans is an "international" event. Yet, if certain parts of the world are excluded from an event by rules, it certainly doesn't seem fair to include statistics from this competition in a thread like this. That would be comparable to including results from the old North American Championships, which I assume would also technically be defined as an "international" event. Also, does anyone know when North American skaters stopped participating in the European Championships? Was that in the 50s? How interesting it would be if that were reversed...a pre-Worlds, post-Grand Prix Final showdown. Also, I agree with your thoughts on the "6.0" mark. In some cases it certainly is an indicator of greatness, but I prefer a judge that is hesitant to throw one out. It should be reserved for moments of sheer brilliance. But, lol, I guess that's the trick...sheer brilliance to one can be mediocre to another. I still can't fathom how some felt Shen & Zhou's freeskate this year at Worlds wasn't one for the ages...but some didn't, and that is another reason why I love this sport. I can see 6.0 written all over something while someone else sees a 5.8.

  8. #23
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    Do I understand you correctly that in your definition the Four continents ARE an international event but the Europeans are NOT??? Strange.

    For me I've divided my listings in:

    National competitions

    Regional competitions (including Europeans, 4 conts, North American, Nordic, Asian winter games and similar)

    International competitions (grand prix and non-grand prix events)
    Grand prix finals
    Junior grand prix finals

    Worlds (senior, junior, synchro)
    Universiades

    Olympics

    Pro and pro-am competitions.

    If someone would try to make a list of 6.0s I might contribute - but I think we would need a lot of people from around the world to collect the marks from all those competitions over the years.... (the new ones are often available thru icecalc)

  9. #24
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    BronzeisG - It was Uncle Dick who caused the Euros to be no longer an Open Competition. You have to realize that Dick was a combo of Yags, Plush, Elvis and Kurt all wrapped up into one at that time. No one could get near him for lst place. The organizers decided that the Euros will be for Europeans only. He's the only nonEuropean to win a European gold.

    I think however, with the Grand Prix that we do get a splash of international skaters here and there.

    Joe

  10. #25
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    Originally posted by Joesitz
    BronzeisG - It was Uncle Dick (...) He's the only nonEuropean to win a European gold.
    Sorry, Joe - he wasn't (in 1948 btw).
    Barbara Ann Scott (CAN) won even twice (1947+1948). :D

    And after this year 1948 the officials excluded non-Europeans (but since then they e.g. included Russia of course - which as a great deal of land in Asia - as well as other eastern countries like Georgia and - due to other reasons - Israel).

    Anyhow - I suppose no European is allowed to participate in the Four (!) continents. Anybody knows for sure??

  11. #26
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    thanks for the info Tdnuva - My rush to include Uncle Dick in the downfall of the European Open, I had forgotten about Barbara Ann. Well that makes two N.Americans to close down the European Open.

    Joe

  12. #27
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    Anyhow - I suppose no European is allowed to participate in the Four (!) continents. Anybody knows for sure??
    No, but skaters from countries in the former Soviet Union which are actually in Asia can complete in Four Continents. Last year Anastasia Gimazetdinova of Uzbekistan finished ninth in ladies.

    BTW, there were also three skaters from Africa (all from the Republic of South Africa). Also at least one from Mexico, proving that "North America" isn't just the United States and Canada. None from South America, though. So I guess the "Four Continents" are North America, Asia, Australia (including New Zealand, which sent two skaters!), and Africa.

    I assume that a skater from the Asian part of Russia (most of it) could skate in Europeans but not in Four Continents. Israel is in "Europe," but I don't know where the other countries of the middle east fall, should they decide to participate. (One presumes they have more pressing problems at hand.)

    Mathman

  13. #28
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    Tdnuva,

    How confusing this has gotten! LOL, no, I consider the Europeans an international event. In terms of this thread, though, when determining which skater has the most 6.0s in international competitions it doesn't seem fair to include Nationals or "international" competitions that exclude skaters from certain regions and countries. But, I guess if you think about it, Europeans would become just another Worlds or Grand Prix Final if they opened it back up to all. And the idea of a North American Championship revival sounds good...but the US would be so dominate in most areas. Yet, I think Canada definitely has the edge in pairs and some of the men look promising. Thanks Mathman for the clarification on Four Continents, I didn't realize that it also excluded certain regions of the world. LOL, FOUR Continents probably should have told me that!

  14. #29
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    Wow, "my" thread has become quite interesting, but I'm still not much more clever than before. For example - does somebody know how many 6.0s Plushenko has gotten so far? Any updated link were all 6.0s at international comps (no fluffs!) are included? And IMHO 6.0s at Nationals are irrelevant, because the judges are national biased and the marks usually highly inflated. I've read Elvis Stojko got a 6.0 at Canadian Nationals once, for presentation! This would never ever happend in an international event!

  15. #30
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    ATJ,

    at the moment no such list seems to exist - so why not trying to start one??

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