Proper jump technique website...could this be real?

2bcharlotte · Apr 10, 2008

I have to share...I found a website I am so excited!! that discusses jump technique. They say that a single loop starts forward and is only a 1/4 of a turn. I was always told that a loop jump has 1 complete rotation or it is considered cheated. He shows video to prove his theory. Is he right?

redhotcoach · Apr 11, 2008

In theory, what the website is saying is backed up by the video evidence. So while jumps may be 'cheated' on take-off and rotation - and still receive full marks in competition - does that mean coaches should be teaching students the reduced rotation technique?

However - is it not possible that by teaching skaters to knowingly underrotate their jumps and cheat the take-off - that the end result will be poorly executed jumps that are downgraded?

As a skater, I was taught solid technique by an elite coach who has had great success - and in return, I teach my skaters solid technique backed by my studies of biomechanics and biodynamics, coupled with the experience of years of watching skaters carefully performing their elements. I never tell my skaters to cheat the take-off or let them think the rotation is less than required, although I am fully aware that jumps such as the loop do take off more from the toe than the edge (but I view that as a good press of the edge and lift rather than just a toe take-off). And, when skaters prerotate their shoulders on the loop to spin the take-off forward - it may work for a single or double but look out when you want a consistent triple!

Coaching is part science and part experience. Each skater is individual in their body control and development. If there were just one way to teach a jump - we would have every skater doing quads in no time!

I think this website gives a different perspective into jump technqiue and is a valuable learning tool. However, like all tools - if they are not used properly then things can go wrong. I'm all for furthering the education of coaches and skaters and taking away from it what helps that particular individual.

andip · Apr 11, 2008

Very interesting info. It was worth the watch and give me many things to think about. I agree with you redhot, if things are done poorly--even good advice can go bad. However, everyone should take a look at these videos to at least start thinking about it.

but all in all I think this is good info. Thanks for passing it on!! I'm going to spread the word and see what my coaching friends here think.

Go look! :clap:

Clarice · Apr 12, 2008

I watched the video, too, and found it very interesting. I think it's just a matter of semantics, though, and not really that most coaches teach "wrong" technique. My coach would 'say' that a loop takes off and lands backwards, but I actually 'do' them like the video describes. Also, I don't know any coaches who think jumping off a clean edge means that you don't push off the toe pick. An edge jump is an edge jump because it doesn't use a toe assist from the free foot, not because you try to jump off the edge without pushing off the toe pick. In all jumps the toe pick of the jumping foot is the last thing to leave the ice. Furthermore, a loop jump most certainly turns 1 full turn in the air - there's no way around that. It may be true that it covers only a quarter turn in relation to the tracing left on the ice, but you still must turn all the way around in the air between the point of takeoff and the point of landing. I think the video is giving good information, but I don't think it's new information - just a different way of saying the same things the coaches I know have been saying all along.

Mathman · Apr 12, 2008

There have been quite a few threads on the Edge about this topic. The consensus seems to be that the mechanics of jumping require pre-rotation of almost every jump.

Clarice · Apr 12, 2008

Okay, I just got back from the rink, and I'll take back part of what I said above. On a loop jump, you don't really turn a full turn in the air - it's a half rotation at best. I still call it a backwards takeoff, because I'm moving backwards when I take off, but it is true that by the time you've pulled the edge around properly you're actually facing forward in relation to the flight path of the jump. I still say that none of this is new information.

vlaurend · Apr 15, 2008

The body does a full rotation in the air; it's just the foot that doesn't, since the toepick is the last thing to leave the ice and the first thing to touch back down on the ice.

andip · Apr 21, 2008

It's all in how you define 'in the air'. I assumed if the toe pick was still on the ice, the skater wasn't 'in the air' yet. Yes, the body rotates more, but only a little bit when completely off the ice. I think that is what he's talking about.

vlaurend · Apr 21, 2008

andip said:
It's all in how you define 'in the air'. I assumed if the toe pick was still on the ice, the skater wasn't 'in the air' yet. Yes, the body rotates more, but only a little bit when completely off the ice. I think that is what he's talking about.

Agreed. In any case, my issue with this guy is that, while he is making an interesting observation, he is not offering any information that is new or will help a skater land a double loop. So what if a single loop is only 1/2 turn in the air? You still need to add another 360 degrees in the air to turn it into a double. In fact, if a single is just 1/2 turn in the air, then a double is actually 3 times the rotation required for a single loop, not twice the rotation! Gee, now he's got me realizing just how much harder a double is, LOL!

andip · Apr 25, 2008

he is not offering any information that is new or will help a skater land a double loop.

I don't recall him saying it was brand new info, just that people might not know about it. Or, just haven't thought about it that way.

which was the case with me.

Clarice · May 9, 2008

icedancingnut31 said:
This guy is teaching you how to do an edge jump by taking off from your toepick?

He's right about that. All jumps take off from the toe pick, in that it is the last part of the blade to leave the ice (and the first to return). In ballet, you jump by rolling through the foot so you leave the floor with a pointed toe. This is pretty much the same thing - you roll through the rocker of the blade and point your toe as you leave the ice. You can't get any height on a jump unless you do it this way, so I imagine that you are to some extent, even if you and your coach aren't thinking about it that way. Try jumping off ice with a flat foot. You'll find that you really can't do it. In order to get any height, you'll roll through your foot so that your toe is the last thing to leave the floor. Besides, it looks better - remember how everybody praised Sasha Cohen's pointed toe position in the air?

This has nothing to do with whether the jump is considered an edge jump or a toe jump. That distinction comes from whether or not the other foot provides a toe assist on the takeoff. If there's no toe assist, it's an edge jump - but the jumping foot still rolls through so that the toe pick is the last thing to leave the ice.

mskater93 · May 9, 2008

For the person who talked to their coach about it and their coach was in disagreement, has your coach actually WATCHED the video on the website before telling you it was bull or review what TL was actually trying to say? My coach has well over 30 years of coaching experience and her comment to the website was "Duh! I just don't tell you that you are actually taking off almost forward from the toe pick because then you will just discombobulate yourself and not do what I am really asking for! Note, that I DO ask you to look for the little flag on the 2Lo attempt take offs when you are working on your own and that last summer's guest coach asked you to look for the same thing!"

silver.blades · May 9, 2008

I find these vids amusing. I don't see how telling your skaters a single loop only rotates 1/4 of a turn in the air. I know that if I'd have been told that by my coach it would have taken me twice as long to land the thing because I'd underrotate it. The jump still turns once, just not once in the air. Generally when learning new jumps, especally doubles and triples, there is a tendency to underrotate. No need to increse the problem by telling the skater they only need 1 1/4 rotations. He's very nice about calling other coaches incompetant. I don't think the videos are telling coaches anything they don't know or anything that will lead to a better way to tack jumps. What ever current coaches are doing seems to be working quite well. They're pretty decent entertainment value though.

vlaurend · May 9, 2008

Clarice said:
He's right about that. All jumps take off from the toe pick, in that it is the last part of the blade to leave the ice (and the first to return). In ballet, you jump by rolling through the foot so you leave the floor with a pointed toe. This is pretty much the same thing - you roll through the rocker of the blade and point your toe as you leave the ice. You can't get any height on a jump unless you do it this way, so I imagine that you are to some extent, even if you and your coach aren't thinking about it that way. Try jumping off ice with a flat foot. You'll find that you really can't do it. In order to get any height, you'll roll through your foot so that your toe is the last thing to leave the floor. Besides, it looks better - remember how everybody praised Sasha Cohen's pointed toe position in the air?

This has nothing to do with whether the jump is considered an edge jump or a toe jump. That distinction comes from whether or not the other foot provides a toe assist on the takeoff. If there's no toe assist, it's an edge jump - but the jumping foot still rolls through so that the toe pick is the last thing to leave the ice.

Yep! What Clarice said! :clap:

Point the toes of your takeoff foot really hard as you take off on a loop, salchow or axel and you will see that you get good spring straight up, which you definitely need for a double.

doubleaxel · May 15, 2008

Thanks for the link! It was very informative about the rotation of loop jumps - especially since I now realize that I don't have to work my butt off to have eaxactly 2 rotations on the double loop.

edrury707 · May 23, 2008

re: Proper jump technique website

Could someone please post the link to this website?

Thanks,

Edward

skatergirl45 · May 23, 2008

skatingjumpsecrets.com

I am not a fan. What this website does is teach skaters that it is OK to not fully rotate jumps. Forget all of the mental help that a double loop is oly 1 1/2 to 1 1/4 times around. We need to think of it as a double loop or skaters will always under roatate jumps. THIS IS A DOUBLE JUMP NOT A ONE AND A HALF JUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I watch the videos now just for entertainment. I have applied his techniques to my skating and all it did was throw my jumps off. I went back to my technique and all is better now.

I am still working on 2 revolutions on the loop jump. Imagine, if we have kids thinking that a loop in only 1/2 times around, that will not help them when they get to doubles.

Sorry to rant, but that is my opinion of this web site.

silver.blades · May 23, 2008

skatergirl45 said:
skatingjumpsecrets.com

I am not a fan. What this website does is teach skaters that it is OK to not fully rotate jumps. Forget all of the mental help that a double loop is oly 1 1/2 to 1 1/4 times around. We need to think of it as a double loop or skaters will always under roatate jumps. THIS IS A DOUBLE JUMP NOT A ONE AND A HALF JUMP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I watch the videos now just for entertainment. I have applied his techniques to my skating and all it did was throw my jumps off. I went back to my technique and all is better now.

I am still working on 2 revolutions on the loop jump. Imagine, if we have kids thinking that a loop in only 1/2 times around, that will not help them when they get to doubles.

Sorry to rant, but that is my opinion of this web site.

I compleatly agree with this. It also seems that the guy who created the website is trying to convince skaters that their coach is probably undertrained and/or incompetant, even though he does it in a very friendly way, so it comes off as less insulting. That acually annoyes me more.
Plus the jump turns 2 times if it's compleate, maybe not in the air, but it's still twice around. Very few skaters are going to be helped by this info.
Although if you don't take it seriously, it's not bad entertainment.

skatergirl45 · May 23, 2008

silver.blades said:
I compleatly agree with this. It also seems that the guy who created the website is trying to convince skaters that their coach is probably undertrained and/or incompetant, even though he does it in a very friendly way, so it comes off as less insulting. That acually annoyes me more.
Plus the jump turns 2 times if it's compleate, maybe not in the air, but it's still twice around. Very few skaters are going to be helped by this info.
Although if you don't take it seriously, it's not bad entertainment.

Right on!!!!!!

Coaches have to pass the PSA test...... They do have some credentials...... I wonder what his are......... lol I tried to look him up but could not figure out how. Does any one know how to?

Clarice · May 24, 2008

skatergirl45 said:
Right on!!!!!!

Coaches have to pass the PSA test...... They do have some credentials...... I wonder what his are......... lol I tried to look him up but could not figure out how. Does any one know how to?

According to the 2007 PSA Directory, he is a member but has not passed any of their tests. I should point out that that doesn't mean much of anything, though. At this point, coaches are not required to take or pass PSA tests. They have to join in order to represent skaters at qualifying competitions, but that is all. Coaches who have passed PSA tests show that they have put in the effort to prepare for the tests, have spent the time and money necessary to attend PSA workshops, and are serious about developing their skills as coaches. I know plenty of good coaches, though, who don't feel it's necessary to take the tests - particularly foreign coaches who already have credentials in their own countries. This may be changing in the future - I believe US Figure Skating is planning to institute some kind of continuing education requirement for coaches.

Proper jump technique website...could this be real?

2bcharlotte

redhotcoach

andip

Clarice

Mathman

Clarice

vlaurend

andip

vlaurend

andip

Clarice

mskater93

silver.blades

vlaurend

doubleaxel

edrury707

skatergirl45

silver.blades

skatergirl45

Clarice

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