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Thread: 2008-2009 Programs by Discipline

  1. #106
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Joesitz, I'm not sure I follow. As I see it, we can certainly compare skater's styles, and say that we enjoy or appreciate certain styles - athletic, musical, balletic, graceful, elegant, etc. Regardless, I do feel that Evan Lysacek, while an excellent skater in his own right, is not up to Yagudin's level, not is he likely to be. Since Alexei Yagudin is, to me, the best male skater ever, that's no knock on Evan.

    The focus for me is that Evan's going to a coach/coreographer who can help him enhance his own skating. I hope, like you wrote, that she will help him become more expressive on the ice because as I see it, he needs that more than he needs a quad lutz. Has anyone ever landed a quad lutz?

  2. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    The focus for me is that Evan's going to a coach/coreographer who can help him enhance his own skating. I hope, like you wrote, that she will help him become more expressive on the ice because as I see it, he needs that more than he needs a quad lutz. Has anyone ever landed a quad lutz?
    I haven't really been following Lysacek extensively but why is he after a quad lutz? Looks like time would be better spent getting his quad toe and other jumps more consistent.

  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by moviechick View Post
    I haven't really been following Lysacek extensively but why is he after a quad lutz? Looks like time would be better spent getting his quad toe and other jumps more consistent.
    So far as I know he's not actually training a quad lutz at this point. I took it to mean not a reference to something he is actually doing but rather a reference to his efforts last season to increase the difficulty in all his elements and get them even more consistent. Just my take on it.

  4. #109
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Joesitz, I'm not sure I follow. As I see it, we can certainly compare skater's styles, and say that we enjoy or appreciate certain styles - athletic, musical, balletic, graceful, elegant, etc. Regardless, I do feel that Evan Lysacek, while an excellent skater in his own right, is not up to Yagudin's level, not is he likely to be. Since Alexei Yagudin is, to me, the best male skater ever, that's no knock on Evan.
    I'm not comparing Alexi with Evan except that they both reach out to the audience, whereas I feel the Johnny brings me into his world.

    The focus for me is that Evan's going to a coach/coreographer who can help him enhance his own skating. I hope, like you wrote, that she will help him become more expressive on the ice because as I see it, he needs that more than he needs a quad lutz. Has anyone ever landed a quad lutz?
    Don't take me literally on that Quad Lutz I was just being fascetious. TT has a way with bringing out that something extra in a skater. Without nitpicking, I don't see much more Evan needs in the Technical. It's a wait and see what she can do for him.

  5. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I'm not comparing Alexi with Evan except that they both reach out to the audience, whereas I feel the Johnny brings me into his world.


    TT has a way with bringing out that something extra in a skater. Without nitpicking, I don't see much more Evan needs in the Technical. It's a wait and see what she can do for him.
    Evan's jumps need a technical overhaul. He kicks up lots of snow when he lands the jumps, and his 3A is scary, as he hooks the landing and is sometimes dinged for UR. His quad rotation is sometimes iffy as well.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Evan's jumps need a technical overhaul. He kicks up lots of snow when he lands the jumps, and his 3A is scary, as he hooks the landing and is sometimes dinged for UR. His quad rotation is sometimes iffy as well.
    I agree. His 3A is just plain ugly IMO. It's funny though that I watched his FS from 2005 Nats and it wasn't bad. I'm not sure what happened but now it's just scary.

  7. #112
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by discoduck View Post
    I agree. His 3A is just plain ugly IMO. It's funny though that I watched his FS from 2005 Nats and it wasn't bad. I'm not sure what happened but now it's just scary.
    True. I have more trust in Mao's 3 axel than Evan's. It is not pretty, but somehow he usually lands it. Reworking it would take at least one season, and that is something he cannot risk at this point.


    On another note, I do not see why Evan is now being compared to Alexi just because they both had program chreographed by Tatianna. Terosova has done many top skater's program over the past decade or so. She chreographed Mao's SP last year and sombody compares Evan to Mao!

  8. #113
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    yeah Evan's 3A is freaky... but he lands it pretty consistantly... doesn't stop me from freaking out everytime though

  9. #114
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    On another note, I do not see why Evan is now being compared to Alexi just because they both had program chreographed by Tatianna. Terosova has done many top skater's program over the past decade or so. She chreographed Mao's SP last year and sombody compares Evan to Mao!
    Here's my take on how this comparison came about:

    1. True, TT has done choreography for many skaters; but for some time she has been recognized for her work with Yagudin more than for her work with other skaters. Obviously their accomplishments as a team were very impressive, and from what I gather they have a really great relationship.

    2. Yagudin, prior to working with TT, was considered more of a jumper/athlete type; I believe he stated after SLC that Tarasova helped him learn how to express himself on the ice and interpret the music. I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that expression and interpretation are things that Lysacek needs to work on as well. And-

    3. It seems to me that some posters are hoping that we will see a similar level of improvement in Lysacek's skating. As I see it, TT will not get him a quad lutz (Joe, I thought it was a joke, but left it to you to clarify for certain) and she will not be able to get him to where Yagudin was when he retired, because Evan, while good, is simply not that good. Also, he's five years older than Yagudin had been when he went to Tarasova. But what this collaboration can do is make Evan a better skater and probably a more interesting one to watch, and I for one am definitely in favor of that. So long as Johnny still finishes ahead of him .

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by discoduck View Post
    It's funny though that I watched his FS from 2005 Nats and it wasn't bad. I'm not sure what happened but now it's just scary.
    That also puzzled me, Evan used to have pretty solid 3A in his junior years, and it seems to become his most inconsistent jump since 2005. The rumor I heard was that he had to change his take off technique due to his hip injuries.

    As to the change of choreographer, I won't jump into any conclusions yet till I see the result. But I DO wish him good luck, can't wait to see how things will work out.

  11. #116
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    So long as Johnny still finishes ahead of him .
    Not really for me. There seems to be a separate competition between Evan and Johnny going on, on the Boards. So many fans want a more definitive Nationals result. While I prefer Johnny's skating to Evan, I leave the competition to the judges. It's just a point of interest to me. and who knows what Jeremy and Adam will do? Maybe knock one of them out of the picutre.

    I'm more interested in Worlds and Stephane than the two home town boys.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Not really for me. There seems to be a separate competition between Evan and Johnny going on, on the Boards. So many fans want a more definitive Nationals result. While I prefer Johnny's skating to Evan, I leave the competition to the judges. It's just a point of interest to me. and who knows what Jeremy and Adam will do? Maybe knock one of them out of the picutre.

    I'm more interested in Worlds and Stephane than the two home town boys.
    Jeremy Abbot, along with Ryan Bradley, is my favorite too. I think he has the best artistry out of all the americans. He reminds me a lot of Matt Savoie. I would love it if either or both of them made it to the Olympics, but the competition appears so stiff with Carriere, Rippon, etc.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    3. It seems to me that some posters are hoping that we will see a similar level of improvement in Lysacek's skating. As I see it, TT will not get him a quad lutz (Joe, I thought it was a joke, but left it to you to clarify for certain) and she will not be able to get him to where Yagudin was when he retired, because Evan, while good, is simply not that good. Also, he's five years older than Yagudin had been when he went to Tarasova. But what this collaboration can do is make Evan a better skater and probably a more interesting one to watch, and I for one am definitely in favor of that. So long as Johnny still finishes ahead of him .
    Weren't people very surprised/skeptical when Yags left Mishin as well? I mean, he was only 18 and Mishin had helped him become European and World champion, but many people weren't sure what would come of him working with TT. If someone just looked at his very early programs, I'm sure there would be a lot of skepticism that he could possibly turn out stuff like Gladiator, Winter, etc, etc. But we never really know how these things will turn out until a while later.

    On the other hand, there are just too many differences in these situations to compare fairly. Of course, Evan is at this point older than Yagudin when Yags retired from eligible competition (the last competition he actually finished was 2002 Worlds). Not many skaters are really artistically developed at 17/18 so he was very mold-able at the time and had a long way to go anyways. Also, Evan is not going to TT, the coach, just for choreography. That is a big difference and the same pattern shouldn't be expected. Finally, Yags was already a World/Euro champion and had all his jumps consistent when he went to TT so its not like TT magically made him a champion. I mean, she's good but she's not some fairy godmother. I don't think comparing the results of Yags and Evan just because of one connection makes any sense. Of course, going to TT probably isn't going to magically make Evan a 4-time world champion but I think it would be interesting to see what they come up with.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Joesitz, I'm not sure I follow. As I see it, we can certainly compare skater's styles, and say that we enjoy or appreciate certain styles - athletic, musical, balletic, graceful, elegant, etc. Regardless, I do feel that Evan Lysacek, while an excellent skater in his own right, is not up to Yagudin's level, not is he likely to be. Since Alexei Yagudin is, to me, the best male skater ever, that's no knock on Evan.

    The focus for me is that Evan's going to a coach/coreographer who can help him enhance his own skating. I hope, like you wrote, that she will help him become more expressive on the ice because as I see it, he needs that more than he needs a quad lutz. Has anyone ever landed a quad lutz?

    Comparing skaters to each other is kind of an exercise in futility to me as each brings something of his/her own to the ice in the first place. We can compare styles and have our own preferences, but it's more realistic to compare a skater to him/herslef and how they improve from season to season.

    I too believe that adding TT to the mix is a great step for Evan and the development of his programs for 2008-09 and beyond.

    Evan brings a lot to the table to start with: strong, solid skills, great athletic ability, an unparalled work ethic, a fierce determination to learn, a willingness to accept challenge, change and instruction, and a passion for his sport that has already translated to the ice. I expect TT to bring out this aspect of his style to an even higher level of expression. Add to that he’s a man with a mission—and a plan to achieve it.

    This past season was an admittedly self-imposed, self-designated “building” year intended to be used to build a foundation for the future, requiring the patience to be able to sacrifice immediate results on the way to achieving long-term goals—and to stay focused while doing so. He did achieve his main goal for the season—defending his national title. The rest I think were more for “on the job training” so to speak. Rather like the proving grounds of the auto industry—test the new design in the field and take it back to the drawing board for further improvements. I believe he did just that.

    Re: 3A/jumps. I too understand that he’d had to adjust his technique for the 3A due to his hip. Add to that the height factor and the resulting center of gravity issue and that alone adds another degree of difficulty for him that he’s had to consider.

    I don’t think he’s lost the jump(s) so much as worked on building/improving the other elements—and succeeded in doing so in both the long and short programs; witness so many consistent level 4 spins and his electric footwork. Something had to give a bit in the meantime.

    Check out his SP scores, two new personal bests in the 80s (3 counting nationals, 82.05) - 81.55 at CoC and 84.06 at 4Cs Even with the quad, those scores wouldn’t have happened without some awesome strong 3As—and 3Ls for that matter. Simply put, in the SP he had more time between jumps so they were more spot on in delivery

    In the FS on the other hand, he’d worked very hard to incorporate greater difficulty in the jump entrances and exits which perhaps had a detrimental effect on the rhythm and timing into and out of the jumps, sometimes resulting in a less than perfect result. Both his URs on the 3A came in the FS. I don’t think it’ll take all that much for him to “fix” the jumps. This season I expect he’ll put all he’s learned from last season together and bring even more to the ice.

    Evan doesn’t need or aspire to be a Yagudin—who I agree is one of the best ever—or a Plushenko, or a Browning, Hamilton or Boitano, for that matter. What he has done is study and learn from them on the way to being the best Lysacek he can be, and I think adding TT to his team is a very positive step in that direction.

    He’s been consistently ranked among the best in the world since entering the senior circuit. There’s no question he has some of the best in the world on his team in Frank Carroll, Lori Nicol and now TT to help him bring his skating up another notch.

    I think skating fans are in for a real treat this next season when she adds her perspective to his programs. Can’t wait to see the programs they put together by tapping deeper into the artist within and adding it to what he already has.

    I believe the best is yet to come for Evan and, as a result, for skating fans who love to see the skaters and the sport itself thrive. Bring it on!
    Last edited by merrybari; 06-20-2008 at 09:45 AM.

  15. #120
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I think you can make general comparisons with skater styles... with so many skaters over so many years, we're bound to see similarities in many of them.

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