One foot Axel-Salchow Combination | Golden Skate

One foot Axel-Salchow Combination

TtonyV7

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 11, 2007
I was wondering how this combination/jump would be evaluated by the new point system (a personal favorite jump of mine).

The one-foot axle-Triple Salchow combo. This is different from D-axle - h/lp - T.Salchow or Toes that we see, as there is no step in between the two jumps. It's actually quite difficult, because if u get off balance from the axle, it's set-up for failure for the Salchow.

This is a combination that Jilly Trenary and Krisztina Cacko used commonly.

So if a skater did this combination (crossing my fingers...), how would it be judge?

Single Axle - Triple Salchow Combo? Or a Triple Salchow with difficult entrance?

watch Jill Trenary do this combo, though not perfect, it's a great combo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFxBgF7jc-k&feature=related
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
So if a skater did this combination (crossing my fingers...), how would it be judge?

Single Axle - Triple Salchow Combo? Or a Triple Salchow with difficult entrance?

The technical panel would identify it as 1A+3S and the base value would be the sum of those two jumps.

Judges could reward it in the GOE or keep it in mind under some of the components as they thought appropriate.
 

nadster

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 1, 2004
The technical panel would identify it as 1A+3S and the base value would be the sum of those two jumps.

Judges could reward it in the GOE or keep it in mind under some of the components as they thought appropriate.

The problem is that the one foot axel is not listed on the standard list of jumps. So the one-foot axel / triple sal combination would just be listed as a triple salchow. The skater would only get extra credit for a difficult entrance on the GOE of the element. As there are much easier ways to get credit in the GOE for a difficult entrance to the salchow, skaters would not use this very risky method.

It is sad that the new judging system eliminates several valid jumps from credit.
I would love to see walleys, toeless lutzes, inside axels and one foot axels count for something. There also were one foot salchows at a time too.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
There are not many ways one can do a major jump and land on a back inside edge to accommodate a combo which takes off on a back inside edge. The half loop is just that, a half of a loop. I see no reason why the jumpers of today could not do a double one foot axel into a 3Flip. Wow. Alas, the ISU ruled out many musical jumps.

(Aside - I'm not familiar with her skating. She seemed to have quite an aggressive style. This is the style Ashley Wagner must follow, imo. btw, did Ms Trenary win that Worlds?)

Joe
 

georgia

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 18, 2003
Joe Jill was a very fast, aggressive and at the same time elegant skater. I was a big fan at the time.
 

Sylvia

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 25, 2003
The problem is that the one foot axel is not listed on the standard list of jumps. So the one-foot axel / triple sal combination would just be listed as a triple salchow.
I've seen one-foot axels listed as 1A on protocol sheets at club competitions. Emily Hughes had a one-foot axel-triple salchow combo planned in her 2005 Junior Worlds qualifying FS but popped the sal and it was listed on the protocol as 1A+1S (just checked).
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
1 foot Axel is a LISTED Axel type jump that lands on the other foot. The only full rotation or higher "standard" jump that gets put in the unlisted jump category is the 1/2 loop. (I consider a walley a non-standard jump.)
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
1 foot Axel is a LISTED Axel type jump that lands on the other foot. The only full rotation or higher "standard" jump that gets put in the unlisted jump category is the 1/2 loop. (I consider a walley a non-standard jump.)
I was under the impression that a 1 ft Axel has no base value nor does doubling or trippling it. Does it have any base value?

I remember reading someone's post saying that 1ftAs and inside As may be used as part of footwork.

Seems to me these back inside landings are tricky and maybe only few skaters (think Kurt) can work them into footwork safely.

Can't think of a reason for not considering a Wally a standard jump? a salchow takes off on a bi edge, why not an inverted lutz?

Joe
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
A 1A+3S combo would be a losing proposition in the IJS anyway. A single Axel (regular or one-foot) has a base value of only 0.8. That's all the extra points you get, compared to just doing a 3S by itself.

The down side is, it uses up one of your 3 allowed combos. If you waste one of your combos for a measely 0.8 points, then you have to drop, say, your 3Lz+2T or your 3F+3T, or your 3F+2Lo+2Lo -- huge point-getters.
 

KBell

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
There are not many ways one can do a major jump and land on a back inside edge to accommodate a combo which takes off on a back inside edge. The half loop is just that, a half of a loop. I see no reason why the jumpers of today could not do a double one foot axel into a 3Flip. Wow. Alas, the ISU ruled out many musical jumps.

(Aside - I'm not familiar with her skating. She seemed to have quite an aggressive style. This is the style Ashley Wagner must follow, imo. btw, did Ms Trenary win that Worlds?)

Joe

Joe - I didn't see where anyone had responded to your question about Jill Trenary - she was US Champ in 87, 89 & 90 (2nd in 88) and World Champ in 90. She won a bronze at Worlds in 89 also - I loved her skating.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
A 1A+3S combo would be a losing proposition in the IJS anyway. A single Axel (regular or one-foot) has a base value of only 0.8. That's all the extra points you get, compared to just doing a 3S by itself.

The down side is, it uses up one of your 3 allowed combos. If you waste one of your combos for a measely 0.8 points, then you have to drop, say, your 3Lz+2T or your 3F+3T, or your 3F+2Lo+2Lo -- huge point-getters.
Yeah, I kind of figured that despite the fact that landing on a back inside edge is not so easy. Never understood thse base values anyway. Who decided what was difficult and what was not?

Also on the down side is a loss of variety which was once there (think Trenary). Well, once we get to the Quint Lutz/Quad Loop, we will have some variety. :biggrin:

KBell Thanks for the info. I would love to have seen her skate the comps.

Joe
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Inside Axels are transition moves for whoever asked that question but one foot Axels count (if you read deep in the rules, it states that a skater can land on either foot except the loop, which is counted as a 1/2 loop and called a transition element, for it to receive its call and BV. Also, an Axel is defined as a jump that takes off forward from the outside edge.)

A one foot Axel gets the same numer of points as a single Axel. That's "fair" if you look at the point system as it is - it is "as difficult" as a single Axel.

Unless you are at a much lower level (like Juvenile where 2As are rare), it's not worth the lack of points to do it. Even a 2T is worth 1/2 a point more than an Axel.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
A one foot Axel gets the same numer of points as a single Axel. That's "fair" if you look at the point system as it is - it is "as difficult" as a single Axel.
My point was a Triple One Foot Axel. Would that get the same?

If only a single is permitted, I can understand not using it in competition. Maybe that was the way of secretly banning it a la the Wally.

Joe
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
It might be worth it if there were a bonus multiplier to the base value of the second jump in a combination. Triple salchow and flip are worth more than triple toe and loop to begin with, and that difference would be worth even more with a multiplier.

Suppose the second jump in the combo were multipled by 1.2.

4.5 for the triple salchow times 1.2 would be 5.4.

0.8 + 5.4 = 6.6 for 1A+3S

1.3 times 1.2 for a double toe at the end of a combination would round up to 1.6.

4.5 + 1.6 = 6.1 for 3S+2T.

2T+3T would be 1.3 + 4.8 = 6.1.

Of those three combinations, the one-foot axel into triple salchow would be the most valuable.

Also doing the double and triple toe with the triple at the end would be worth more than with the double at the end, which is another reason I think it would be more accurate to score combos like that.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
My point was a Triple One Foot Axel. Would that get the same?

A triple axel landed on the back inside edge of the takeoff foot (triple one-foot axel) would get the same base mark as a regular triple axel. It would just be really really difficult to control that landing edge, and I don't think there is currently anyone who could do it.

If only a single is permitted, I can understand not using it in competition. Maybe that was the way of secretly banning it a la the Wally.

They are not banned. Single one-foot axel is just not scored highly enough to be worth doing at the elite level. I did see a one-foot axel-double salchow combo at a club competition in a juvenile event recently.

Walleys and inside axels are not banned either, but they just don't earn any points. Walleys as transition moves are at least as common now as they were a few years ago under the old system.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
It might be worth it if there were a bonus multiplier to the base value of the second jump in a combination.
!!

Plus, that would totally solve the problem of properly rewarding triple-triples in proportion to their difficulty.
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
A 1A+3S combo would be a losing proposition in the IJS anyway. A single Axel (regular or one-foot) has a base value of only 0.8. That's all the extra points you get, compared to just doing a 3S by itself.

The down side is, it uses up one of your 3 allowed combos. If you waste one of your combos for a measely 0.8 points, then you have to drop, say, your 3Lz+2T or your 3F+3T, or your 3F+2Lo+2Lo -- huge point-getters.


I think that a one foot axel should be worth much more than a regular. Any preliminary girl can land a nice axel... but who can land a one footer?
 
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