Sasha Cohen quote in IFS

Dee4707 · Aug 21, 2003

You are not expecting all of them fault in one competetion (lets say worlds, where most likely they will all be there) to allow Sasha to win with a flawed program.

No, I don't expect that at all and I don't think that I really eluded to that either. I just wondered why Sasha's skating is commented on so negatively. Really that was all I was really saying.

From the ankles up she might be the best skater in the world. But the sport of competitive figure skating is judged from the ankles down.

Math, I certainly agree with that.

Dee

rtureck · Aug 21, 2003

Mathman said:
From the ankles up she might be the best skater in the world. But the sport of competitive figure skating is judged from the ankles down.

From ankle up would have to include arm, hand finger choreography? Have you watched Oksana's swan programs from 1994 lately. Talk about wonderful arm, hand and finger choreography.

IMHO, and it is just my opinion, definitely not meant to be negative, I will have to disagree with you that Sasha is the best skater in the world from the ankle up. There are a few elligible skaters who have better arm/ hand/ finger choreography, and equal extension, even if they have less amplitude.

OTOH, I think her speed, and edges are improving.

Off topic, just found a few pictures of the Japanese ladies showing off their new programs for 03 - 04

Fumie has been attending Lori's artistry/ presentation boot camp, look at those fingers:

http://www.avis.ne.jp/~tkosawa/fig2003nobeyama/pic/fig2003nobe_6568_suguri.jpg

Miki is paying attention to the arm/ hand / fingers, look at the golden blades, hmm... hope she wears gold in 06

http://www.avis.ne.jp/~tkosawa/fig2003nobeyama/pic/fig2003nobe_6805_ando.jpg

2 more pictures of Ota

http://www.avis.ne.jp/~tkosawa/fig2003nobeyama/pic/fig2003nobe_6482_oota.jpg

http://www.avis.ne.jp/~tkosawa/fig2003nobeyama/pic/fig2003nobe_6988_oota.jpg

registered · Aug 22, 2003

Enjoy viewing the snapshots of a not so good "above the ankles" skater, with weak and not secure edges.

http://www.sashafans.com/media/gallery/2002lalique/long/dushenka-2.jpg

http://kgphotos.com/cgi-bin/RLink/R...a&SEARCHTERM1=Cohen&SEARCHTERM2=&SEARCHTERM3=

http://www.jayadeff.com/2002Cohen_2F.jpg

http://www.passionplus.net/JO 2002/imagettes/ladiesshort/cohen01-01.gif

http://www.sashacohen.com/news.shtml

http://pro.corbis.com/images/watermark/67/14119337/PN018449.jpg

http://www.starsstripesandskates.org/gallery/cohen/cohen-mw1.jpg

http://www.toeloopy.com/images/events2002-2003/RockCenter/sc02rc0535.jpg

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 22, 2003

From looking at some of those Sasha pictures, I'm ok with the fingers. They are simple ballet basics. There are no special stylized fingers such as those of Ota and Suguri.

Joe

rtureck · Aug 22, 2003

Picture of a skater who is one of the best above and below the ankles:

Yuka, look at those fingers

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Christie/7266/fsphoto/0307ex_01.htm

Yuka can do pairs to boot

http://onotch.com/figure/nobeyama2003b.htm

and Mao Asada is the cutest

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Christie/7266/fsphoto/0307ex/03mao.jpg

Mai Asada is a classic beauty, and Mao the younger sister is so cute

http://onotch.com/figure/nobeyama2003.htm

Fumie has stylized fingers, grace and attitude in her new programs

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Athlete/3919/figureskating/03summer_festival_in_nobeyama/40.jpg

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Athlete/3919/figureskating/03summer_festival_in_nobeyama/37.jpg

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Athlete/3919/figureskating/03summer_festival_in_nobeyama/38.jpg

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Athlete/3919/figureskating/03summer_festival_in_nobeyama/88.jpg

lavender · Aug 22, 2003

Just wanted to say that Sasha made this statement before worlds also. After her bad time at Nationals she said that she changed her focus.

berthes ghost · Aug 22, 2003

Lavender, I was going to say that, but suddenly got unsure if it was true or not. Sometimes my memory is fuzzy.

For someone who doesn't care about the others, she sure was staring a hole right through Fumie's LP scores. She looked more concerned about them then Fumie did!

Lucy25 · Aug 22, 2003

I think it is fair to say that Sasha does get quite a bit of criticism for not skating clean, much more than lots of skaters. But I think the reason is two-fold. All the commentators watch her in practice, where apparently she nails her programs. She then goes out to compete and is not clean, often messing up on moves she can do in her sleep. This frustrates the commentators who have built her up to incredible standards to the public and must then save face by criticising her. It is almost as if Sasha has disappointed them for not living up to their expectations. Most of Sasha's programs would be lifetime bests for other skaters, but because she is the hyped "it" girl, she has failed. She is very similar to Michelle Kwan in this way. Like Michelle, Sasha is held to a very different standard, fairly or not.

lavender · Aug 22, 2003

Berthes, your memory is correct. Her focusing on the right thing helps but it doesn't guarantee success.

I don't think it's fair (expectation then the criticism) when you don't have anything to do with the hype but Sasha has said some things that hasn't sat well with people. It's especially not fair on Michelle since she has come through more than anyone has (ever). However I think it will take time for Sasha to get stronger with her skills (edges). She will probably get it together. I don't beat her down for falling because I like her skating and a lot of her programs. It just kind of surprises me some of the things she messes up on. For some reason it throws me everytime.

Dee4707 · Aug 22, 2003

Like Michelle, Sasha is held to a very different standard, fairly or not.

Lucy, that is a great explanation.

Dee

mzheng · Aug 22, 2003

Lucy25 said:
All the commentators watch her in practice, where apparently she nails her programs. She then goes out to compete and is not clean, often messing up on moves she can do in her sleep.

IIRC, in this board I read that Sasha dose not do full runthrough in practice. So the commentators may see her nails her programs without triple jumps (skaters usually put single instead in practice). Then nails her triple jumps in a seperate context. While in real competetion she has to nail the program and triples in program context, which need more concentration than what needed in practice, and not mention she must be in different mind set compared in practice.

shine · Aug 22, 2003

I never think of Sasha as balletic; fiesty, full of attitude and dramatic, yes, but not balletic. And I think there are many other skaters who are just as good from "ankle-up" as Sasha if not better. All Sasha does better is her extention and flexibility. Elena Liashenko, for example, has such dramatic arm movements, as well as Maria butyrskya. And I agree that Okasna Baiul is the true ballarina on ice, her expressive arms and body language has yet to be surpassed (see the difference here? Sasha's arms are far too stiff to qualify as balletic, there lacks a flow and softness in all her moves). Yukina Ota, who is one of my very current favorites, is also amongst the ones with the most expressive arms I've ever seen. Only such expressive body movement can be called balletic.

Lucy25 · Aug 22, 2003

mzheng said:
IIRC, in this board I read that Sasha dose not do full runthrough in practice. So the commentators may see her nails her programs without triple jumps (skaters usually put single instead in practice). Then nails her triple jumps in a seperate context. While in real competetion she has to nail the program and triples in program context, which need more concentration than what needed in practice, and not mention she must be in different mind set compared in practice.

You're right. I have heard Sasha herself say that she doesn't do full run throughs. I imagine it is easier to nail elements done in isolation then it is in a full run through. This makes the commentators remarks even more confusing. I remember reading on the boards that maybe this lack of full run throughs in practice is her problem.

Mathman · Aug 22, 2003

Registered, you must have scoured the Internet to find so many pictures of Sasha looking ungainly and awkward. Maybe she is one of those very animated people that looks good in motion but not in still photos.

RTureck, very lovely pictures of the Japanese ladies. But it's not really fair to compare Sasha's upper body positions, arms and hands, at this stage of her career, with those of the exquisite professional Yuka Sato! :love:

Mathman

rtureck · Aug 22, 2003

Mathman said:
RTureck, very lovely pictures of the Japanese ladies. But it's not really fair to compare Sasha's upper body positions, arms and hands, at this stage of her career, with those of the exquisite professional Yuka Sato!
B]

Then how about a comparison with CUTIE Mao Asada

Look at Mao's gentle head roll, and she has cute fingers too.

http://www.geocities.co.jp/Bookend-Christie/7266/fsphoto/0307ex/03mao.jpg

registered · Aug 22, 2003

Mathman said:
Registered, you must have scoured the Internet to find so many pictures of Sasha looking ungainly and awkward. Maybe she is one of those very animated people that looks good in motion but not in still photos.

Mathman

Hmm, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as they say. I posted these pictures to disprove a nonsense about Sasha's poor edging technique. Anyone, who knows at least a little bit about figures skating, would tell you, that Sasha's Ina Bauer, spread eagle, spins are of an amazing quality. One has to have very secure edges to hold a balance on her skid spiral, or I-spin. And of course, there's nothing comfortable about those elements, but Sasha makes it all look effortless, what seldom could be said about other skaters.

rtureck · Aug 22, 2003

Mathman said:
Registered, you must have scoured the Internet to find so many pictures of Sasha

Ah... Mathman, Registered probably has enough Sasha pictures to operate/ adminster 2 Sasha Cohen message boards / fan sites.

Yup, Joesitz, I agree Cohen's fingers are OK, basic ballet. I think she is not the worse below the ankles, and not the best above the ankles.

Now Mathman back to the serious comparisons. Look at Miki Ando

http://www.avis.ne.jp/~tkosawa/fig2003nobeyama/pic/fig2003nobe_6805_ando.jpg

DEEP edges , nice extension, and those fingers, each one is at a different plane (is that a math term) or each finger is at a differnet line and angle relative to each other. These all work EXPONENTIALLY for an out of the world effect of Einsteinian proportion, she has the golden blades, and is the first lady skater to land a quad in competition to boot. Bring on 2006.

PS off topic
About Einstein, a physics / math genius who played the violin. "Al you can do theory of relativity, but you can't count!" ~~ A. Schnabel

registered · Aug 22, 2003

rtureck said:
Ah... Mathman, Registered probably has enough Sasha pictures to operate/ adminster 2 Sasha Cohen message boards / fan sites.

Ah, and suppose I do? What's wrong with that? Apparently YOU have enough pictures to administer a few Ando's sites.

I'm going to find few pictures of Sasha, showcasing "balletic" arms. Please wait until I actually post them, before you continue with your bashing.

rtureck · Aug 22, 2003

registered said:
Ah, and suppose I do? What's wrong with that? Apparently YOU have enough pictures to administer a few Ando's sites.

I'm going to find few pictures of Sasha, showcasing "balletic" arms. Please wait until I actually post them, before you continue with your bashing.

Be careful of accusing others of "bashing".

Be careful to read all the definitons here at GS about bashings. I compliment on Miki Ando, she is the first woman to land a quad in competition, and she is listed as one of the 25 most influential people in skating. I gave an assessment of Sasha's skating. "Below the ankles she is not the worst and above the ankles she is not the best". I agree with Joe that Sasha's fingers are OK, basic ballet.

Joesitz (RIP) · Aug 22, 2003

I think I can judge balletic arms when I see them. Sasha does have the basic balletic arms that a ballet student has in class.

For stylized balletic arms one must look at the Ota picture. Increible! (wish I had accents on this typewriter). btw, Ms Ota will be the one to watch this year. Dare I say this is the of Yokina?

Joe

Sasha Cohen quote in IFS

Dee4707

Ice Is Slippery - Alexie Yagudin

rtureck

registered

Joesitz (RIP)

rtureck

lavender

berthes ghost

Lucy25

lavender

Dee4707

Ice Is Slippery - Alexie Yagudin

mzheng

shine

Lucy25

Mathman

rtureck

registered

rtureck

registered

rtureck

Joesitz (RIP)

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