Janet Lynn keynote at Gov council | Golden Skate

Janet Lynn keynote at Gov council

icebarre

Spectator
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Janet Lynn's keynote address (close to an hour in length) is up on the video-archive at icenetwork.
 

visaliakid

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Country
United-States
I have searched the entire site... including all of the Video Archives and have not found Janet Lynn's Keynote speech listed anywhere. Maybe it was up and taken down for some reason?
 

icebarre

Spectator
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Yes, it's no longer there. I was only able to listen to the first few minutes and then was hoping to come back to it, but no luck.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
From what I have read, the controversy centers on whether the USFSA censored and deliberately suppressed Janet Lynn's remarks because they were not very flattering to the direction that figure skating seems to be headed these days.
 

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
It is strange that she would praise school figures, since they often held her back. However, I have found new respect for Janet Lynn for speaking her mind. It matters not whether I agree or disagree with Janet, but that she spoke her mind.
 

dlarry1

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Wow. What an incredibly moving speech, full of imagery and memory. It remains to be seen if her voice will be fully heard, but I for one feel I better understand the sport having read her words.
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
It is strange that she would praise school figures, since they often held her back.

Not really, she had the bad luck to hit her competitive peak when the best figures skater, as opposed to figure skater, was hitting her peak, but overall it was her own competition nerves that held her back more, both in figures and free skating.

And IIRC hardly any skaters who had competed in the figures era were in favor of just junking them entirely. Even Cousins, who hated doing them in competition seemed to think they were necessary for proper training.

Dumping figures was largely driven by countries with very weak skating programs who lacked the resources to properly train them and thought if they didn't have to worry about them, then they'd maybe start winning some medals. And that's kind of what happened - the fourth year after figures were dumped, there was an OGM who had never even heard of a bracket turn (and some people who were actually surprised when she 'lost' her technique).
 

maureend

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Well, I don't know the term for bracket turn in Russian... I wouldn't expect Russian speakers (don't know that Baiul knows Ukrainian) to know it in English unless they were coaching English speakers, taking from English-speaking teacher, etc.

Second, Baiul gained her jumps months before her 93 worlds win and kept them until her body changed. Viktor Kudriavtsev, described by Bute as someone who could "teach a monkey to do triple jumps" said girls should EXPECT to lose their jumps during their body changes and not worry about what happens during that year - possibly longer. The better their jump technique was prior to puberty, the more easily they'll regain the jumps.

Janet Lynn isn't the only one who thinks lack of figures hurts overall development. Aleksei Urmanov has made similar comments about the general skating quality and level of young skaters today. They simply don't know the terms or the moves that he asks them to do. And it takes a long time to teach them.

I Found Lynn's speech really interesting and illuminating. Her training environment seems a bit of an utopia, but nice that she had such a thing. It's not just figures that are lacking, but also a "group" approach to learning that seems more sensible to me than all this "individuals" lessons, which also seems to involve as a result a lot of unsupervised practice of difficult, dangerous things by skaters with less money to spend on individuals.
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
Well, I don't know the term for bracket turn in Russian... I wouldn't expect Russian speakers (don't know that Baiul knows Ukrainian) to know it in English
...
Viktor Kudriavtsev, ... said girls should EXPECT to lose their jumps during their body changes ... The better their jump technique was prior to puberty, the more easily they'll regain the jumps.

First, I was making an oblique reference to a story told by Boitano - he was practicing bracket turns and post OGM Baiul (watching) didn't know what they were and couldn't do them when she tried (not surprising that she couldn't do them first time she tried, jaw droppingly shocking that she could win OGM without ever having to learn them).

Second, the problem here is that skaters (esp young ladies) are under huge pressure to 'learn' multi-rotational jumps before they have the control of edges and turns they need to do them right. So they learn wonky technique that sort of works when they're built like stringbeans and weigh next to nothing (and have lax coaches and/or testers). Then they never can do the jumps reliably (or right) after puberty.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Second, the problem here is that skaters (esp young ladies) are under huge pressure to 'learn' multi-rotational jumps before they have the control of edges and turns they need to do them right. So they learn wonky technique that sort of works when they're built like stringbeans and weigh next to nothing (and have lax coaches and/or testers). Then they never can do the jumps reliably (or right) after puberty.
That is an excellent point. I handn't thought of it exactly like that before, but it makes sense.

A scrawny 14-year-old can toss herself into the air any old way and get credit for a triple jump. Later on, it's technique, technique, technique.
 

Ptichka

Forum translator
Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Well, I don't know the term for bracket turn in Russian... I wouldn't expect Russian speakers (don't know that Baiul knows Ukrainian) to know it in English unless they were coaching English speakers, taking from English-speaking teacher, etc.
The word is "скобка" which translates as, surprisingly enough, "bracket"! (Not all elements translate so easily, for example the "rocker" is "крюк", which literally translates as a "hook".)

Baiul does not speak Ukrainian. When she and Petrenko would speak to Ukrainian delegations, he'd have to bail her out by doing all the talking, since even though he is a Russian speaker, he at least knows Ukrainian.
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
The word is "скобка" which translates as, surprisingly enough, "bracket"! (Not all elements translate so easily, for example the "rocker" is "крюк", which literally translates as a "hook".)

Cool! What about 3, counter, loop, paragraph and serpentine (or change as in change loop)? (seriously I love learning stuff like this)
 

ChrisH

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Second, the problem here is that skaters (esp young ladies) are under huge pressure to 'learn' multi-rotational jumps before they have the control of edges and turns they need to do them right.
This must be true as triples are worth approximately 3 times as much as doubles and I haven't seen any doubles get high GOEs.

So they learn wonky technique that sort of works when they're built like stringbeans and weigh next to nothing (and have lax coaches and/or testers). Then they never can do the jumps reliably (or right) after puberty.
Okay, but is figures the answer? From what admittedly little I've seen, retaining the wonky technique can be explained by lesser athleticism rather than by lesser training. And I think the "puberty monster" thing has been overstated by others. Look at the current biggest jumpers among the ladies: Yuna, Kostner, and Asada. Being taller is a good thing for skaters. The bad thing is being wider. To minimize the negatives of puberty I suspect that seeking a nutritionist rather than a figures coach would work better. Was Baiul's weaker jumping due to lesser athleticism or the lack of figures?

I totally agree with Lynn about a greater need for gracefulness in figure skating. I agree with her that the emphasis on tricks leads to more injuries and hurts the long term health of the skaters. I would like to see skaters perform more events each year over many more years.
 
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Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
болшое спасибо! *

That's very cool! I've already bookmarked it. I like how 'change of edge' is a single word in Russian. I assume that Пере- is through, does -тяжка mean anything?


* I hope that's right
 

Mafke

Medalist
Joined
Mar 22, 2004
I haven't seen any doubles get high GOEs.
Okay, but is figures the answer? From what admittedly little I've seen, retaining the wonky technique can be explained by lesser athleticism rather than by lesser training. ... Was Baiul's weaker jumping due to lesser athleticism or the lack of figures?

That first point is so interesting. Theoretically it should be possible to do a beautiful double jump that would get positive GOE scores in reality judges (and the jump queens among the fans) seem to regard doubles as wasted jumping elements. A change I'd love to see would be to require at least one jumping pass in the LP have no more than two revolutions.

Given the economic and time realities, figures are certainly not a cure-all but for most skaters they teach control of edges and turns better than anything else.

One of Lynn's points (I have no idea if she's right or nuts) is that besides the skills they teach, figures are also good as a healthy warm-up (lots of skaters seem to agree with this) and in long-term muscle conditioning so that a figures trained skater is less likely to succumb to (non-accident related) injuries. In that light (if Lynn's right) Baiul's lesser athleticism is a direct result of not being trained in figures at all.
 

dwiggin3

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
First, I was making an oblique reference to a story told by Boitano - he was practicing bracket turns and post OGM Baiul (watching) didn't know what they were and couldn't do them when she tried (not surprising that she couldn't do them first time she tried, jaw droppingly shocking that she could win OGM without ever having to learn them).

Second, the problem here is that skaters (esp young ladies) are under huge pressure to 'learn' multi-rotational jumps before they have the control of edges and turns they need to do them right. So they learn wonky technique that sort of works when they're built like stringbeans and weigh next to nothing (and have lax coaches and/or testers). Then they never can do the jumps reliably (or right) after puberty.

I could not have said this better. I was TERRIBLE at figures but it made me a better skater in the long run.
 

dwiggin3

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
That first point is so interesting. Theoretically it should be possible to do a beautiful double jump that would get positive GOE scores in reality judges (and the jump queens among the fans) seem to regard doubles as wasted jumping elements. A change I'd love to see would be to require at least one jumping pass in the LP have no more than two revolutions.

Given the economic and time realities, figures are certainly not a cure-all but for most skaters they teach control of edges and turns better than anything else.

One of Lynn's points (I have no idea if she's right or nuts) is that besides the skills they teach, figures are also good as a healthy warm-up (lots of skaters seem to agree with this) and in long-term muscle conditioning so that a figures trained skater is less likely to succumb to (non-accident related) injuries. In that light (if Lynn's right) Baiul's lesser athleticism is a direct result of not being trained in figures at all.

If you watch the warm ups of dance and mens/ladies, you will often see some of their positions and edges in basic stroking mimics that of figures. It's the same edge control, turns, brackets, loops, ect. that figures teaches. Additionally, when a skater makes an error in a program, often how well they recover (with exception to a fall flat on the rump) control of their body and blade can be corriated to their mastery of basic skating skills taught in figures. Every time I think of Sasha Cohen falling, it is so obvious that she did not take figures for any length of time if at all. I can just see it in her edges or lack thereof. I would contend though, that most people will not notice the intergration of figures into free unless they 1) spent years taking patch themselves and thus, can see as well as "feel" how the learned edge control helps or 2) happens to be a skating guru and possesses an uncanny knowledge of a sport they may/may not have actually competed in.
 

ChrisH

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 31, 2007
Theoretically it should be possible to do a beautiful double jump that would get positive GOE scores in reality judges (and the jump queens among the fans) seem to regard doubles as wasted jumping elements. A change I'd love to see would be to require at least one jumping pass in the LP have no more than two revolutions.
Except for the 2A which I occasionally forget is a double. Otherwise, the ladies usually tack on anemic 2T's and 2Lo's and the rare triple opened up to a double.

At her FS winning performance at the NHK Trophy, Meier actually did a 2F and 2Lz. She also did a 3Lz and 3F. She got approximately the same score for a good 2F+2T with a 2nd half bonus as she got for a spinned out and one-hand down 3F. Both flips were off the wrong edge. A solid 2Lz got 0 GOEs across the board. With the current jump values, it's better to do a very messy triple rather than a good double.

http://www.isufs.org/results/gpjpn07/gpjpn07_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0GU-kWQNSA

Is it obvious from Meier's skating that she has or has not done figures?
 
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