When is the right time to learn doubles?

doubleaxel · May 15, 2008

When is the right time to learn doubles?

When I have my axel consistent? Or can I start now?

I land my axel nearly every time I go skating (which is once a week) but it's not consistent enough for me to say that I "have it".

A jump I am really comfortable is the loop, so is it correct for me to start working on th double loop? Or maybe double salchow?

All single jumps are comfortable for me but the loop seems to be the most effortless one. Which double should I start working on first?

Oh, and I don't have enough money to take lessons, so don't tell me "ask your coach". Also any personal anecdotes would be wonderful.

Clarice · May 16, 2008

I don't do doubles, so I don't have personal anecdotes. But based on years of watching my daughter and her friends, you could start on your double salchow now. That seems to be the double most commonly taught first, and a number of skaters get consistent with it even before their axel settles in.

skatergirl45 · May 16, 2008

I started my double sal when I sorta kinda had my axel.
My loop is one of my easiest jumps but I started with the sal. I would suggest starting w/ the sal because the loop can have many technique problems and the sal has the easiest take off.

Good luck!

doubleaxel · May 16, 2008

skatergirl45 said:
I started my double sal when I sorta kinda had my axel.
My loop is one of my easiest jumps but I started with the sal. I would suggest starting w/ the sal because the loop can have many technique problems and the sal has the easiest take off.

Good luck!

For me the loop has the easiest take off, but I'll start working on both and then see which on I am more comfortable with. I already tried the double loop for fun,and it was cheated by 1/2 rotation. I am figuring that if I take off forward, I will just have to make a little less than 1 1/2 rotation in the air, and it will be still a valid 2 loop.

Thanks!

C_T_T_ · May 16, 2008

Usually you would start with 2S and 2T because the technique and mechanics are closer to an axel. On axels, salchows and toe loops its the right leg that 'kicks through' where as with loops, flips and lutzs its the left leg that 'does the jumping' if that makes sense! Thats not to say you can't try 2L too, it might work for you as everyone has jumps they prefer.
I've never really been able to do 2T, have never got the right timing but 2L worked for me almost immediately.

vlaurend · May 16, 2008

doubleaxel said:
For me the loop has the easiest take off, but I'll start working on both and then see which on I am more comfortable with. I already tried the double loop for fun,and it was cheated by 1/2 rotation. I am figuring that if I take off forward, I will just have to make a little less than 1 1/2 rotation in the air, and it will be still a valid 2 loop.

Thanks!

However you take off on your single loop is how you will take off on the double loop. Going along with your argument, let's say that by the time your toepick completely leaves the ice, you are actually facing forward. That means your single is only 1/2 turn in the air and your double only needs to be 1-1/2 rotations in the air. But the fact remains that you are going to have to do a full 360 degrees *more* rotation in the air for the double, no matter how you take off. Assuming you do 1/2 turn in the air on the single, that means the double will require 3 times as much rotation as the single, not just twice as much. So you need to really pull in tight and stay over your right side to achieve it.

C_T_T_ · May 16, 2008

doubleaxel said:
For me the loop has the easiest take off, but I'll start working on both and then see which on I am more comfortable with. I already tried the double loop for fun,and it was cheated by 1/2 rotation. I am figuring that if I take off forward, I will just have to make a little less than 1 1/2 rotation in the air, and it will be still a valid 2 loop.

Thanks!

Doubleaxel, re. taking off forwards. That is techniquely what happens as is discussed in the other thread but I wouldn't advise thinking about it too much as that could lead to more prerotation. Maybe I'm telling you what you already know but I was taught to think about jumping up to the top of the jump in the first half rotation ie from the back outside egde to forwards, then pulling in. If you looked at the tracing on the ice i was facing forwards when my blade left the ice but that certainly wasn't what I was focused on. Hope that makes sense, it's difficult to explain in writting! Good luck with it!

ETA: it may be a 'valid' double loop if it is under a quater rotated but you should definately try to land it clean backwards!

Tinymavy15 · May 16, 2008

how can you learn doubles without a coach?

my coach taught me the 2 salchow when I landed my axel at least once a session. You should at least start working on salchow-loop combos, salchow-back scratch spin and perhaps 2 salchows on the harness.

doubleaxel · May 17, 2008

C_T_T_ said:
Usually you would start with 2S and 2T because the technique and mechanics are closer to an axel. On axels, salchows and toe loops its the right leg that 'kicks through' where as with loops, flips and lutzs its the left leg that 'does the jumping' if that makes sense! Thats not to say you can't try 2L too, it might work for you as everyone has jumps they prefer.
I've never really been able to do 2T, have never got the right timing but 2L worked for me almost immediately.

Me too! Using the technique from the Jumping Secrets site, I landed some double loops today. :love:

They were cheated by about a quarter, and I fell on most. But nevertheless, they're pretty close.

Also, thanks for the input on the take off.

Tinymavy15 said:
how can you learn doubles without a coach?

my coach taught me the 2 salchow when I landed my axel at least once a session. You should at least start working on salchow-loop combos, salchow-back scratch spin and perhaps 2 salchows on the harness.

I don't have a harness, and to use a harness I have to pay another coach and it will be an even larger some of money.
I did some salchows-loops and salchows-backspins today too, thanks.
I might take a lesson next week just to start off, but that will be about it. My motto is pratice and concentration (though I can never get the concentration part!).

mskater93 · May 17, 2008

The problem with that method is that sometimes what you think is right ain't necessarily so. You should consider videotape.

C_T_T_ · May 17, 2008

doubleaxel said:
Me too! Using the technique from the Jumping Secrets site, I landed some double loops today. They were cheated by about a quarter, and I fell on most. But nevertheless, they're pretty close.

Also, thanks for the input on the take off.

I don't have a harness, and to use a harness I have to pay another coach and it will be an even larger some of money.
I did some salchows-loops and salchows-backspins today too, thanks.
I might take a lesson next week just to start off, but that will be about it. My motto is pratice and concentration (though I can never get the concentration part!).

Well done! No problem.

If you can get a lesson, definately do. I understand it's difficult if you can't afford a coach, I'm in a simaillar position at the moment but I'm lucky enough to have years of lessons to fall back on. If you learn and practice bad technique now it will be difficult to break later. With doubles there are so many little things that you might not notice that a coach will see immediately so 1 or 2 lessons could really help.

blue dog · May 17, 2008

i am amazed that you can do so much without a coach! i am thinking of learning how to skate (i never did learn) on ice.

that being said, have you tried doubles off-ice first?

silver.blades · May 17, 2008

It isn't normal, but the first double I started working on was the flip about 2 months after starting to work on the axel. If you're working on the axel, it's a good time to start doubles because some people have an easier time landing doubles than an axel. Definatly try the sal, it's one of my weakest single jumps, but my best double, although the technique dosn't change when adding rotations a swingy jump like the sal can be easier as a double than a single. If you have a good loop, the only difference on the double is concentrate on keeping your skating side (landing side) long and strong. Make sure the rotation is around the landing side and the rotation is initiated by the hip and not the shoulders.

doubleaxel · May 18, 2008

blue dog said:
i am amazed that you can do so much without a coach! i am thinking of learning how to skate (i never did learn) on ice.

that being said, have you tried doubles off-ice first?

I've tried doubles, and I can rotate a double loop but not very consistently. An axel is far more easy off ice. Well, I've had lessons here and there, maybe once in 2 months, and I started off with 8 weeks of learn-to-skate once a week, which definitely helped.

Also, I've considered videotape but I had a camera issue when I tried to tape my jump yesterday. I'll videotape it next time if I get the chance!

It isn't normal, but the first double I started working on was the flip about 2 months after starting to work on the axel. If you're working on the axel, it's a good time to start doubles because some people have an easier time landing doubles than an axel. Definatly try the sal, it's one of my weakest single jumps, but my best double, although the technique dosn't change when adding rotations a swingy jump like the sal can be easier as a double than a single. If you have a good loop, the only difference on the double is concentrate on keeping your skating side (landing side) long and strong. Make sure the rotation is around the landing side and the rotation is initiated by the hip and not the shoulders.

Thank you so much! That helped a great deal! That thing about the skating side is my main issue (and also arms) because I tend to lean into the circle. How do you break that habit?

dwiggin3 · May 19, 2008

doubleaxel said:
When is the right time to learn doubles?

When I have my axel consistent? Or can I start now?

I land my axel nearly every time I go skating (which is once a week) but it's not consistent enough for me to say that I "have it".

A jump I am really comfortable is the loop, so is it correct for me to start working on th double loop? Or maybe double salchow?

All single jumps are comfortable for me but the loop seems to be the most effortless one. Which double should I start working on first?

Oh, and I don't have enough money to take lessons, so don't tell me "ask your coach". Also any personal anecdotes would be wonderful.

When I was skating, I began working on doubles when I started to over rotate my axel. My axel took a long time to land. By the time I was over rotating my axel, my technique was solid (with exception to the loop) and and I also had the power to get close to a double. It also saved my axel as the desire for more rotations was satisfied by working on doubles. I actaully had no problems achieving the rotation the first time to tried a 2S, I just could not hold the lading. The same was true for my 2T. So, for me, my first doubles were easy as my only trouble was holding the landing and not the revolutions.

My first double was a sal and my second was as toe. I started my 2T a few weeks after my 2S but I'm not sure that is normal. I had issues with my loop which I had to relearn. I was landing a 2F about 60% before I ever landed a 2L and my 2S and 2T were about 80-85%. My 2Z was actually about 75% when I started landing 2L's at about 50%. By the time my 2L was about 75% and worth putting in a program, I was regularly competing my 3S, 3T and 3F. I never did compete my 3Z. I had one season when my 3L was about 60% but that was as good as it ever got.

silver.blades · May 19, 2008

doubleaxel said:
Thank you so much! That helped a great deal! That thing about the skating side is my main issue (and also arms) because I tend to lean into the circle. How do you break that habit?

Try hard to not think about your arms otherwise you could start to muscle your jumps and that makes your shoulders rotate ahead of your hips causing a lean in the air or off centre rotation. Rotation is through the hips, not the shoulders. To keep from leaning into the circle, think of the jump going straight down, and up and be compleatly over your landing/skating side. Trying a 2L out of a backspin can really help with getting the rotation through the hips and doing a single Loop into a backspin can help with proper rotation position.

When is the right time to learn doubles?

doubleaxel

Clarice

skatergirl45

doubleaxel

C_T_T_

vlaurend

C_T_T_

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win

doubleaxel

mskater93

C_T_T_

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!

silver.blades

doubleaxel

dwiggin3

silver.blades

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